MGS4 3D engine post mortem [translation needed]

[RudeCurve]

Not really the Cell's fault. I'm sure 6 SPEs are perfectly fine to achieve this kind of physics detail and advancement. Look at the facial animation in Heavy Rain, even that 3 year old tech-demo for instance. I think that outdoes what they showed at that MGS4 tech demo. Which is leaving me with the conclusion that Japanese devs, again, have not figured out the PS3 just yet. Doubt Square-Enix have either, unless we're talking artstyle.

There's nothing particulerly demanding in Heavy Rain's facial animation. I think you want to believe that there is. It's more art than anything. Anyway the point is show me the money don't just talk about it. If you hae a theoretically powerful chip but you can't fully use it then it's the programmers fault? Not saying the CELL is a bad and inefficient design but it works both ways. I don't even think God himself could do magic with a crappy CPU or programming tools. The moral of the story is don't pimp something before it's finished and don't put all your eggs into the same basket that you're pimping.

 

[-tkf-]

That PDF doesn't display any readable text/letters for me. Care to provide a working one, I'm rather interested in it.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2152/jpegtq9.jpg

 

[joker454]

I hope he has learned his lesson and to stop talking big when PS4 arrives.

It's not all his fault, we were all expecting more. His shock/confusion was likely similar to everyone else's when we all got actual PS3 dev kits, followed shortly afterwords by extreme panic.

 

[Akumajou]

Of course the PS3 is far weaker than what was promised. Just look at the 2005 real-time trailer at 60fps. I die a little every time I watch it thinking of the kind of visuals we could have had this generation. Yield problems and lots of new tech made that impossible, unfortunately.

Yes there was a prototype PS3 way back in 2005 that was composed of engineering sample chips that were not final.

But do you seriously believe that game programmer would slap together a 3d game engine running real time on engineering sample Chips?

The best I could say is that what you were looking at was a higher quality beefed up MGS3 engine that since it was not really playable in real time was made to display features you were likely to see, however the final game trumps the E305 tech demo so case was closed since June.

 

[Kittonwy]

A few things:

What console games use FP16 anymore? Aren't there other solutions to HDR lighting such as all the logluv stuff done out there?

What games out there truly meet or exceed their visual targets outside of maybe UNCHARTED!!!111!!!???

Lighting and shadowing obviously weren't as aggressive in the final game, granted we're comparing a game to what amounts to basically a tech demo with zero gameplay. As long as there's HDR SELF-SHADOWIN I don't know what the problem really is.

 

[Jedi2016]

I think it says something about the developers that they were able to use this "underpowered" hardware to put out what's still one of the best-looking games this gen.

 

[RudeCurve]

the final game trumps the E305 tech demo so case was closed since June.

The cut scenes in the initial techdemos looks better than that of the final game's.

 

[jandlecack]

I think it says something about the developers that they were able to use this "underpowered" hardware to put out what's still one of the best-looking games this gen.

Rendering at less than 720p internally as well. That says even more about this console generation, doesn't it?

 

[Neb]

The cut scenes in the initial techdemos looks better than that of the final game's.

I think thats a given one, even the dev Kojima stated they could not do all they had wanted to do. Theres a large difference between E#'05 and final product and snakes body with hair is one. Resolution is another one...

 

[Gitaroo]

so the game is not even using HDR rendering at all? Just some tricks to fake it? Man, the team must be really good with arts to make such a great looking game especailly the lighting. Sub HD, fake AA, fake HDR but still looks so good.

 

[FirewalkR]

I don't remember the trailer, ought to give it another look, but KZ2's doing very well on the explosion and smoke front!

Also, for the kind of effects you're looking for, keep your eyes peeled for Killzone 2. It has some incredible smoke and dirt effects fidelity even in the alpha/beta footage we've only seen so far.

Yep, and that was especially noticeable in the GC footage. I love the persistence of the smoke. I don't even care if I can't see anything.

There's something I don't like about the explosions though, and it's the flash/brightness effect, it just doesn't seem convincing. Everything else looks great.

 

[Jedi2016]

Rendering at less than 720p internally as well. That says even more about this console generation, doesn't it?

In a manner of speaking.. it goes to show that there's more to graphics than just what resolution it renders at. Case in point: CoD4. I was playing it this morning on X360, and was still amazed at how good it looks, considering it's low rendering resolution.

 

[vazel]

In a manner of speaking.. it goes to show that there's more to graphics than just what resolution it renders at. Case in point: CoD4. I was playing it this morning on X360, and was still amazed at how good it looks, considering it's low rendering resolution.

Not only that but it actually has lower polys than the previous CoD. IMO what makes it look so good is they eased off on overprocessing the image with all kinds of pixel shading that makes it look like playdoh-plasticky. That and the smooth framerate.

 

[Gitaroo]

A few things:

What console games use FP16 anymore? Aren't there other solutions to HDR lighting such as all the logluv stuff done out there?

What games out there truly meet or exceed their visual targets outside of maybe UNCHARTED!!!111!!!???

Lighting and shadowing obviously weren't as aggressive in the final game, granted we're comparing a game to what amounts to basically a tech demo with zero gameplay. As long as there's HDR SELF-SHADOWIN I don't know what the problem really is.

I think alot of the 3rd party games use FP16 HDR on PS3, and FP10 on 360 with some AA. Its mostly 1st party developers that use nAo32 HDR with AA on the PS3. Uncharted met the target render because the first trailer they even shown were already running in real time as the early stage of the engine and improves over the time, theres a presentation video up at gametrailers.

 

[RudeCurve]

so the game is not even using HDR rendering at all? Just some tricks to fake it? Man, the team must be really good with arts to make such a great looking game especailly the lighting. Sub HD, fake AA, fake HDR but still looks so good.

Take MGS3, increase the number polygons in the models, increase the resolution of textures, increase the resolution, turn the green hue into brownish/yellow, add more particle effects and you have MGS4.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Take MGS3, increase the number polygons in the models, increase the resolution of textures, increase the resolution, turn the green hue into brownish/yellow, add more particle effects and you have MGS4.

It seems to me that you're judging the game on promotional videos. The desert setting only makes up 1 out of 5 acts in very different locales, and there are tonnes of impressive things to see through the course of the game. There's only been one sequel this generation that I'd speak of the way you described MGS4, and that's Ridge Racer 6. Every other game has at least added some normal mapping or HDR blending effects that couldn't be mistaken for last gen on steroids. MGS4 is so far from that that I'm still left to guess at how they pulled off a lot of the effects.

 

[Skrying]

This just further cements to me that while processing power is a issue and always will be, a team with exceptional artists will always create the most beautiful and breath taking games.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Just about the only (rather) noticeable difference between the 05 trailer and the final product seem to be the shadows. Textures are pretty much on par (and Uncharted beats MGS4 easily in that regard anyway). A little less debris floating through the air maybe, but there are lots of explosions in the final game and they still look rather convincing.
The hair doesn't look much different to me either.(at least in the 480p video. Maybe it's more apparent in HD.)
I think Kojima Productions came pretty damn close.

 

[psorcerer]

The only thing weaker from any realtime trailer is a 10% drop in GPU and VRAM, not really enough to make the difference from 'Okay' to 'Gorgeous'.

256bit -> 128bit VRAM bus seems more than 10% to me.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I've always thought that MGS4 isn't using HDR color space, but never dared to mention it, considering how I've got bashed for my guess at the model poly counts... Seems like I wasn't that wrong with that guess either, though