PS3 was never spec'd to have a 256 bit bus, so that was never downgraded. Any developers who used the full VRAM BW of the 7800GTX in the devkit and didn't factor in the drop they would get on the final system are guilty of a serious cock-up!
MGS4 3D engine post mortem [translation needed]
- Thread starter gongo
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MazingerDUDE
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I've always thought that MGS4 isn't using HDR color space, but never dared to mention it, considering how I've got bashed for my guess at the model poly counts... Seems like I wasn't that wrong with that guess either, though
It is. Seems like some translation problem going on here, but if you consider anything less of FP16 HDR to be none HDR, there's zero HDR games on the consoles of this generation. The article is NOT about what they were not able to do with the game, but rather how they struggled to find solutions to make it work. Seems like MGS4 is using HDR resolution similar to NAO32, since they had to find a way to deal with the blending problem.
I really don't believe ps3 was downgraded that much, as ShiftyGeezer said it is just a minor downgrade in gpu.
Actually if you think about it, that much downgrade doesnt make any sense:
1.They anounced ps3 as 7800gtx+3.2ghz cell at tgs 2005, at that event there were already some games which used 7800gtx for graphics processing.
2.Cell processor is a cpu as fast as a gpu(better than 7800gtx at pixel shading if I am getting this right[ research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf ]) so it can help graphics a lot.
3.To show this, they showed mgs4 video which ran on a pc with 2 7800gtxs running in sli mode.
4.At e3 2006,while ps3 was still known as 7800gtx+cell, they showed a downgraded version of mgs4 which was running on a single 7800gtx with no cell intervention.(Environment size was halved, shaders were downgraded and there was slowdown)Which shows that they decided not to use spes to improve graphics for that game.
Why they did this, I can't know for sure but I guess It was to release the game early, sony really needed a game which was going to increase hardware sales and this game was it.
Furthermore, If you watch latest killzone 2 videos you will see that that game's graphics are on par with tgs 2005 mgs4 trailer.Killzone 2 also uses mostly 4,5 spes at once out of 6, also runs at a higher resolution than that mgs4 trailer(it was something like 1080*600 If i remember right), only thing 2005 video does better is framerate.(Some will say mgs4 had better character models but we didnt see any character model in killzone 2 which was designed for just 2 or 3 characters talking in a small environment.)
I think how powerfull ps3 is can really surprise a lot of people.
Firs post by the way, Hello
Actually if you think about it, that much downgrade doesnt make any sense:
1.They anounced ps3 as 7800gtx+3.2ghz cell at tgs 2005, at that event there were already some games which used 7800gtx for graphics processing.
2.Cell processor is a cpu as fast as a gpu(better than 7800gtx at pixel shading if I am getting this right[ research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf ]) so it can help graphics a lot.
3.To show this, they showed mgs4 video which ran on a pc with 2 7800gtxs running in sli mode.
4.At e3 2006,while ps3 was still known as 7800gtx+cell, they showed a downgraded version of mgs4 which was running on a single 7800gtx with no cell intervention.(Environment size was halved, shaders were downgraded and there was slowdown)Which shows that they decided not to use spes to improve graphics for that game.
Why they did this, I can't know for sure but I guess It was to release the game early, sony really needed a game which was going to increase hardware sales and this game was it.
Furthermore, If you watch latest killzone 2 videos you will see that that game's graphics are on par with tgs 2005 mgs4 trailer.Killzone 2 also uses mostly 4,5 spes at once out of 6, also runs at a higher resolution than that mgs4 trailer(it was something like 1080*600 If i remember right), only thing 2005 video does better is framerate.(Some will say mgs4 had better character models but we didnt see any character model in killzone 2 which was designed for just 2 or 3 characters talking in a small environment.)
I think how powerfull ps3 is can really surprise a lot of people.
Firs post by the way, Hello
After I got MGS4 the first thing I did was to download the best possible trailer of the old TGS trailer and compare.
To me the greatest difference was the framerate AND the lighting effects. By god everything casted astonishingly accurate high resolution shadows everywhere. There were also much more light sources than the final game. Snake's suit was shinier too.
There were also more objects in the interior where snake meeds the Mk II for the first time.
It was obvious that Kojima aimed high and wanted to demonstrate the level of detail they were going to achieve. 60fps was something they wanted to. It said "60 FPS" on the trailer. On purpose the camera also zoomed to snake's face to show his teeth and tongue and later it zoomed towards his cigarette to show the lighting effects of the fired wood and the cigarette itself. Something must have went wrong either on their estimations or the final SDK's
To me the greatest difference was the framerate AND the lighting effects. By god everything casted astonishingly accurate high resolution shadows everywhere. There were also much more light sources than the final game. Snake's suit was shinier too.
There were also more objects in the interior where snake meeds the Mk II for the first time.
It was obvious that Kojima aimed high and wanted to demonstrate the level of detail they were going to achieve. 60fps was something they wanted to. It said "60 FPS" on the trailer. On purpose the camera also zoomed to snake's face to show his teeth and tongue and later it zoomed towards his cigarette to show the lighting effects of the fired wood and the cigarette itself. Something must have went wrong either on their estimations or the final SDK's
See post #11 for a 60fps version at 480p. There are HD versions around but only at 30fps, like at IGN (insider). However, if you truly want to see the difference, you've got to see it at 60fps.
I know, watched it before.It was downloaded on my pc, but I deleted it and cant find it anywhere on the net now.
I think it was 7800GTX and Cell at 2.4GHz.
Never heared of this before in that context.
Actually I think they had then the RSX instead of the 7800GTX setup. If it ran at 500MHz or 550MHz I dont know. But soon after the PS3 was going to be released.
Does it run at 60fps like the MGS4 trailer and have such high poly characters?
I thought it was ~4 SPEs for graphics and the rest for gameplay logic. And the 60fps MGS4 trailer was 1280*720p, the HD version from Gamersyde or was it IGN at that time.
'Sup! :smile:
There was a 1280*720p HD version of the 60fps trailer. maybe Gamersyde has it stashed away or IGN etc.
I have Gamersyde's version somewhere I think, but it was 30fps, just like IGN's. I never found a 60fps/720p version. :/
Somebody on this forum said it, It was a trusted member If I remember right and it all makes sense after comparing 2005 and 2006 videos to each other.
I am not %100 sure if it was a 7800gtx or a little more powerful version of rsx but one thing I am sure is that 2006 videos are a huge downgrade from 2005 trailer and has slightly better shading compared to final game.
As I said in my post; Killzone 2's framerate is lower but it has much more characters, action and explosions compared to 2005 trailer, environment and view distance may also be better.
You also only saw cutscene models in 2005 trailer which designed for very little to no action and mostly 3-4 characters on screen, actually there wasn't any action on screen after snake appeared; they didn't show such models for killzone 2.
I am not saying Killzone 2 is technically on par with 2005 trailer by the way, because of framerate, can't be sure.
Developers said themselves that they were using mostly 4,5 spes at once.
The reason I believe 2005 trailer's resolution was lower than 720p is; a few months ago ,on some websites, I saw 1080*600 versions of game's older build's screens and thought the only reason that was because developers wanted to put fake 1080p support to the game.
Gamersyde hd videos are always 720p regarless of games native resolution.
'Sup! :smile:[/QUOTE]
Passing time
Also because it uses mostly 4,5 full spe power at once.
Just crossed my mind right now, you people don't believe mgs4 tgs2005 trailer could be done on a single 7800gtx and the difference between tgs2005 trailer and final game is just the difference between rsx and 7800gtx, do you?
You really think 512mb7800gtx could do that at 60fps?
No way.
According to this: http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html, wikipedia and what some developers on this forum said about rsx, difference between rsx and 7800gtx ,512 or 256, is not that much to make that much downgrade necessary.
There is no way single 7800gtx could do that any way.
Difference between a 7800gtx and rsx is the difference between 2006 build and the latest build, nothing more.
It is obvious they just decided not to optimise graphics engine for spes.
No way.
According to this: http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html, wikipedia and what some developers on this forum said about rsx, difference between rsx and 7800gtx ,512 or 256, is not that much to make that much downgrade necessary.
There is no way single 7800gtx could do that any way.
Difference between a 7800gtx and rsx is the difference between 2006 build and the latest build, nothing more.
It is obvious they just decided not to optimise graphics engine for spes.
the PS3's ~22GB/sec VRAM bandwidth vs the 7800GTX/512 40/54GB/sec VRAM bandwidth is a hell of a difference to begin with. 8 vs 16rops to. Also Wikipedia's != to definitive facts, anyone can edit but all cant be honest.
Not at 60fps, see my comment below.
He tapped the Cell, despite him taking back the comment I see it as some form of "damage control". He pulled the wrong strings by being honest. The "suits upstair" most likely went into panic mode and he withdraw his comment!
Now no I dont think the 60fps trailer was realtime in the sense of displaying 60fps. I think it was done in realtime on the engine and then speeded up to make it look like 60fps (as they would expect the final PS3 to be able to do).
There was same year or eraly 2006 a video of the dev talking (a Japanese girl saying hu, ha thorughout the whole video--> annoying!). In this video the graphics looked like the 60fps MGS4 trailer but it ran at ~25fps in a limited scene while Kojima played with the post-process filter sliders. I think the 7800GTX ran this with the Cell at 2.4GHz.
What is written in wikipedia and rsx secrets and what some developers said here are nearly same,there is only 50 mhz memory clock difference in wikipedia.
I definitely can't see anything rsx alone cant do in the final version of mgs4, there are already rsx only games matches it.Actually I think saying "we push cell to the limits" or "we tapped all of its power" is more a damage control to make sure company's and game's reputation stays intact, since everybody was expecting that game to use ps3 hardware as optimised as possible to the limits.
There is definitely nothing in mgs4's final builds graphics that rsx alone can't do and if they used cell's 6 spes in most optimised way possible for ai/phsics/animation, how do you think phsyics, animation and ai would be in that game?Do you think they could be matched by a quad core or xenon?
What are you saying exactly?7800 gtx alone could do that graphics alone at ~25 fps or 7800gtx+cell helping it for graphics ~25 fps?
Even if that trailer was 30 fps, technical difference between 2005 build and latest is so big, I do not think half the rops and %60 bandwith can do that much difference.
Are you sure that presentation was ~25 fps?
And the 8 missing rops or the half VRAM bandwidth? Those are very important to.
what makes you sure it doesnt?
By a quad yes even a duo but that is offtopic.
Bolded part I would think but how much or if Cell helped, you need to ask Kojima.
I didnt say it ran at 30fps either, it could ahve been rendered at 10-30fps and speeded up.
Yes, cant find the video but its surely out there on the net. As said it was a limited scene, meaning walls, house walls coveringsight and Snake standing alone.
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