LAIR Thread - * Rules: post #469

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Physics, lighting, AI are some things that should be as realistic as possible to 'wow' the public. Realistic lighting brings out the details and gorgeous sunset/sunrises. 2 scopes of realism and 4 scopes of fantasy, shake and 2 drops of lemon.

And the water still looking good but anyone else reacted to the repetitive water "hard edged block"/"stairstep" pattern when up high in one of the latest gametrailers videos?
 
That's true to a degree, but there will be a need for things to make sense relative to the real world. eg. If you have people falling thousands of feet with no problems, that'll look comedic. You won't be able to create a gritty world if certainly rules are ignored.
So how's about objects get lit on the sides facing away from lightsources? Things fall up? Soldiers crawl around on all fours everywhere? Inverting perspective so things get bigger the further away they are? All these things would make the game look a ridiculous mess, because they're not realistic. Our brains aren't happy with things that aren't natural, like lights working back to front, or perspective being screwy. You have to operate within the users sphere of understanding, which is an understanding of the real world. Deviating from that causes a whole world of hurt.

Or possibly makes for an unique and interesting IP that focuses on just those visual illusions that make knecker cube, haunted houses, magic eye and all the rest so interesting. Or we could just stick with the plain vanilla boring world around us. The one that's just outside your window... every day and night. ;)
 
Or possibly makes for an unique and interesting IP that focuses on just those visual illusions that make knecker cube, haunted houses, magic eye and all the rest so interesting. Or we could just stick with the plain vanilla boring world around us. The one that's just outside your window... every day and night. ;)
Those interesting visual tricks aren't the same thing though. they're great in small doses, but would you really want to sit through a 2 hour movie presented as a random dot stereogram? Modern art is very much a niche, and if you wanted to create a modern-art game that ignores all natural conventions, on the whole you'll be pegged into a tiny market. It could be done, and perhaps with interesting results in the puzzle game genre. But a game about people riding dragons is going to need to be rendered with natural conventions to be accepted. Just as a racing game is going to need normal perspective. If you're trying to create an artificial world that people can relate to, you have to do it in terms that they can relate to. the is the same for any story-driven artistic endeavours. Films try to use characters based on realistic people. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't draw people in emotionally. It's for these reasons that we've never had a film made about a square that wants to be a circle, and moves through colours making sounds for 2 hours until it's achieved. Even if you create a very complex set of rules for the square's universe, the fact no-one knows what they are, or could relate to them even if they did know what they are, would prevent anyone caring.
 
Those interesting visual tricks aren't the same thing though. they're great in small doses, but would you really want to sit through a 2 hour movie presented as a random dot stereogram? Modern art is very much a niche, and if you wanted to create a modern-art game that ignores all natural conventions, on the whole you'll be pegged into a tiny market. It could be done, and perhaps with interesting results in the puzzle game genre. But a game about people riding dragons is going to need to be rendered with natural conventions to be accepted. Just as a racing game is going to need normal perspective. If you're trying to create an artificial world that people can relate to, you have to do it in terms that they can relate to. the is the same for any story-driven artistic endeavours. Films try to use characters based on realistic people. If they didn't do that, they wouldn't draw people in emotionally. It's for these reasons that we've never had a film made about a square that wants to be a circle, and moves through colours making sounds for 2 hours until it's achieved. Even if you create a very complex set of rules for the square's universe, the fact no-one knows what they are, or could relate to them even if they did know what they are, would prevent anyone caring.

I admit that films such as those would be too deep for the average Hollywood flick, mainly because the majority of people in the west (difference between asian cinema and western cinema) have very short attention spans.

But in a game (which is art if it's called Manhunt!); which by its own premise is not the real world, then adding elements of the weird and unatural should be like the difference between reading a great work of fiction and a text book. Which one would be more interesting.

IMO nitpicking over DoF in a game where you pursue the obviously everyday normal experience of flying a dragon whilst being attacked by various weird and wondeful creatures to the backdrop of a world that is at once familiar but strange is, in itself, a waste of forum space.

It's a game, an escape from reality, not a EMR101 course!
 
But in a game (which is art if it's called Manhunt!); which by its own premise is not the real world, then adding elements of the weird and unatural should be like the difference between reading a great work of fiction and a text book. Which one would be more interesting.
The difference is more like reading a book which subscribes to the standards of conventional English, or reading a book that arbitrarily puts punctuation wherever it wants, uses different spellings, and doesn't separate words clearly.

Lost! Plan. Nets a game - deSIGn'd Xbox for the 360 : PC,In-car-nation-and-is't,goINg is't letto u no just about this often as. As possible. And by. Means any possible. MiGh t this be? having 'a' Game entirely designed mechanic? console For a; szd-scrn image couldorit be a of a 360 SPLASHED contwollllla inder-throughout-midenly! the game. Just don't. You forget its origins, okay!
The above is a paragraph from a gaming website, with a lot of artistic creativity applied, shunning the boring rules of grammar and spelling. How many books would you buy written like that? I wouldn't buy any, because the story would be lost as I struggled to make sense of it. If the world of the game doesn't make sense to me, I won't appreciate it. I'm trained to see a question mark and interpret it as a question, and it's hard to ignore them and not have them affect my understanding of the text.

One of the new advantages to next-gen is better realism in emotional expression. nAo joked about photo-surrealism, but the game he's working on strives to make the fantasy characters as believable as possible but implementing the subtle facial movements that convey emotion. If they were to throw the standards we all understand out the window, and have the characters walk around with fixed grins and laugh when they're chopped up, how's that going to affect the experience? Artistic liberties can only be applied in some situations, and always at the risk of alienating most of your potential market.

IMO nitpicking over DoF in a game where you pursue the obviously everyday normal experience of flying a dragon whilst being attacked by various weird and wondeful creatures to the backdrop of a world that is at once familiar but strange is, in itself, a waste of forum space.
I can agree with your POV. It's a choice the devs get to make, not constrained by certain limits. There are occasions though where not following the norm is a bad choice, and 'it's a game so they can do whatever they want' is a sweeping excuse that doesn't work. Designers have to work with a degree of realism, the minimum of which makes the game acceptable. eg. Driver had cards floating through the air when they crashed. That's unrealistic, but the game worked because the setting was realistic, there was gravity, cars turned left when you pushed left, things were light on the side the light was, and so forth. And also the game wasn't trying to be serious. We had a good laugh over those spectacular, unrealistic crashes. If the same was in a more intense and serious situation, it'd ruin the experience.
 
So how's about objects get lit on the sides facing away from lightsources? Things fall up? Soldiers crawl around on all fours everywhere? Inverting perspective so things get bigger the further away they are? All these things would make the game look a ridiculous mess, because they're not realistic. Our brains aren't happy with things that aren't natural, like lights working back to front, or perspective being screwy. You have to operate within the users sphere of understanding, which is an understanding of the real world. Deviating from that causes a whole world of hurt.

As much as i'd like to play the game you described to satisfy my curiosity - i have to agree that you shouldn't make it too weird to alienate the audience. ;)
 
Looks so much better now. A couple of months back I thought it was fugly. They seem to have fixed most of the stuff I thought looked crap.
 
That's true to a degree, but there will be a need for things to make sense relative to the real world. eg. If you have people falling thousands of feet with no problems, that'll look comedic. You won't be able to create a gritty world if certainly rules are ignored.
So how's about objects get lit on the sides facing away from lightsources? Things fall up? Soldiers crawl around on all fours everywhere? Inverting perspective so things get bigger the further away they are? All these things would make the game look a ridiculous mess, because they're not realistic. Our brains aren't happy with things that aren't natural, like lights working back to front, or perspective being screwy. You have to operate within the users sphere of understanding, which is an understanding of the real world. Deviating from that causes a whole world of hurt.

Actually, all you have to do is give the gamers a reason why the world they are playing in works in such a fashion and they will be just fine.

Games doesn't have to be mimick reality whatsoever to be fun and immersive. You just have to give them a good back story and they will buy it everytime.

Create a GT/Forza 2 like racer with quirky physics and no explanation and you might get an burned. Explain to them that race tracks are located on the Moon and every planet other than earth and you'll get away with things that GT or Forza2 would never dream about doing.
 
Official Lair site opened with new videos and other goodies:
http://www.us.playstation.com/lair/

I am psyched ! :D
Still a little wary about SIXAXIS dragon flight + mid-air conflict, but I dig the sense of scale and freedom. I played the recent trailers in full screen mode on my 22" monitor, with sound all the way up. It's a great feeling :D
 
New screenshot from the Playstation Blog:

83b08341bbsn7.jpg


Its associate producer basically talks about finishing the game up:

Lair Nears the Finish Line, Full Speed Ahead!
 
Whoah!

Huge improvement on that last pic!
For a moment I thought I was staring at a CGI pic :oops:
 
Doesn't this picture show off what everyone has been complaining is lacking...?

Plus just a nice retrospective look.

Sept 2006

929230_20060921_screen001.jpg


July 2007

83b08341bbsn7.jpg
 
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Doesn't this picture show off what everyone has been complaining is lacking...?

If you mean DoF, the game already has DoF for 1-on-1 fights such as dragon boxing. The issue was raised for free flights only.

As a side not, I don't see much improvement on the last shot as it is hard to compare one creature to others and count it as an improvement. I mean, even if it has visibly better geometry, textures and shaders, maybe the creature was there from the beginning or who knows what the scene is about.

By the way, I like the bloomish nonlinear brightness effects (whatever they are called), which are more apparent in the videos.
 
If you mean DoF, the game already has DoF for 1-on-1 fights such as dragon boxing. The issue was raised for free flights only.

As a side not, I don't see much improvement on the last shot as it is hard to compare one creature to others and count it as an improvement. I mean, even if it has visibly better geometry, textures and shaders, maybe the creature was there from the beginning or who knows what the scene is about.

By the way, I like the bloomish nonlinear brightness effects (whatever they are called), which are more apparent in the videos.

Saying the creatures are different means it would be quite irrelevant to compare the quality of textures etc in different games....whereas it clearly is not. You can see the quality of both, and the comparison is valid (and striking).
 
Saying the creatures are different means it would be quite irrelevant to compare the quality of textures etc in different games....whereas it clearly is not. You can see the quality of both, and the comparison is valid (and striking).

The screenshot by itself doesn't really mean much as Volcanic logic dictates any developer can come up with better models if it dedicates most of the resources to one model only. How is this an improvement by itself?

And again, maybe spiderwasp was developed earlier than the rest. Does it make a downgrade?

It is like comparing apples to grapes. ;)
 
damm the last pic looks good and you must be cocked eyes to say that there are no differences from the 2006 pic.

btw 1000th post on this thread. :LOL:
 
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