Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[bkilian]

Good post with interesting ideas,in a short time you're already considered the source of a new leak on NeoGAF.
The approach taken by ps4 seems better.I do not understand how
MS wants to compete.If it is true the rumor of a GPU 1.2 TFLOPS also this "special sauce" Graphics Pre-Emption could definitely improve the efficiency,etc.. but not do miracles.
Why does MS should spend so much on customization to get lost with a GPU so weak

I love how people are referring to > 1TF as "weak". How fickle we are. When the 360 launched, a machine capable of over a teraflop would almost make it onto the top 100 supercomputer list (6 months earlier, it would have _been_ on the list).

Stop comparing these systems to high end PC GPUs that require 300 watts just to function. For one, they have different constraints and requirements. For another, it's not all about the GPU. Raw GPU flops does not tell the whole story. I guarantee you, Microsoft's next system will be able to do things your current computer does not have the resources to do, and I say that knowing some of you folks have monster PC setups. (Dunno about Sony, I know next to nothing about their system)

 

[LXFBN]

I love how people are referring to > 1TF as "weak". How fickle we are. When the 360 launched, a machine capable of over a teraflop would almost make it onto the top 100 supercomputer list (6 months earlier, it would have _been_ on the list).

Stop comparing these systems to high end PC GPUs that require 300 watts just to function. For one, they have different constraints and requirements. For another, it's not all about the GPU. Raw GPU flops does not tell the whole story. I guarantee you, Microsoft's next system will be able to do things your current computer does not have the resources to do, and I say that knowing some of you folks have monster PC setups. (Dunno about Sony, I know next to nothing about their system)

Like....:smile:

 

[Inuhanyou]

O_O.....You've interested me Bkillian.

But yeah, custom hardware goes a long way toward what we see on screen. That's even without taking into account that pure "flops" is a relatively meaningless statistic especially when it goes to GPU itself as if that's the sole thing that matters in terms of power/performance.

 

[ERP]

The differnce being when they are both made by the same company the variation is likely going to be less..

Only if the configurations are similar in other ways.
Extra ALU's or flops only help you when you are flop limited.
Pop quiz 2 GPU's, one with 12ROPS and 15 CUs and one with 16 ROPS and 10CU's, which is faster?
It depends on what is being done.
Now if we assume very different memory configurations and your just comparing 1 part of 2 potentially very different chips even if they are based on the same core building blocks.
And this is discounting things like if MS or Sony had significant vector performance added to the CPU's, or other significant modifications.

You can't judge system performance by any single metric, because everything has to work together.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Like....:smile:

Did you really think that high end PC's would outperform the new consoles in every single aspect on the day they launched? There's a difference between being faster/more capable in some respects and being overall more capable of displaying better graphics.

Even the PS360 have some graphical advantages over todays highest end PC's.

 

[LXFBN]

Did you really think that high end PC's would outperform the new consoles in every single aspect on the day they launched? There's a difference between being faster/more capable in some respects and being overall more capable of displaying better graphics.

Even the PS360 have some graphical advantages over todays highest end PC's.

No, but in the vast majority.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I get the feeling Bkillian is referring to actual important things that matter to direct performance, not something like Cell's arbitrary theoretical performance levels that never actually mattered to games in the areas that mattered.

In even some areas, the Cell could beat certain high end CPU's in pure number crunching today. But it didn't actually matter to games much.

 

[Blazkowicz]

They were actually very close in shader FLOPS. Xenos was 240 GFLOPS and RSX was around 250 off the top of my head.

But these are really paper flops.
The RSX is really ancient tech, it worked because the geforce 6/7 had a nice performance per watt and area for their time but I remember when the 8800GTX came out and absolutely crushed the 7950GX2, completely stomped and humiliated.
A massive difference, and the 7950GX2 was like two better RSX taped together.

 

[Xenus]

Only if the configurations are similar in other ways.
Extra ALU's or flops only help you when you are flop limited.
Pop quiz 2 GPU's, one with 12ROPS and 15 CUs and one with 16 ROPS and 10CU's, which is faster?
It depends on what is being done.
Now if we assume very different memory configurations and your just comparing 1 part of 2 potentially very different chips even if they are based on the same core building blocks.
And this is discounting things like if MS or Sony had significant vector performance added to the CPU's, or other significant modifications.

You can't judge system performance by any single metric, because everything has to work together.

True anything with bandwidth and ROPS would crush the other in transparancies assume no other bottleneck. However I think it's a safe assumption they will be going with a similiar base archetecture even if the configuration of it ends up quite differently

 

[MrFox]

He said "current" computer, so maybe a cheap PC in 2014 will have an APU with those features?

 

[Proelite]

I love how people are referring to > 1TF as "weak". How fickle we are. When the 360 launched, a machine capable of over a teraflop would almost make it onto the top 100 supercomputer list (6 months earlier, it would have _been_ on the list).

Stop comparing these systems to high end PC GPUs that require 300 watts just to function. For one, they have different constraints and requirements. For another, it's not all about the GPU. Raw GPU flops does not tell the whole story. I guarantee you, Microsoft's next system will be able to do things your current computer does not have the resources to do, and I say that knowing some of you folks have monster PC setups. (Dunno about Sony, I know next to nothing about their system)

Loving it. Bkilian laying the smackdown around these parts (b3d) as usual. :smile:

 

[Proelite]

The remaining question we have for the Durango that would give us a complete picture.

Main ram type and bandwith. Clamshell ddr3?

The nature of the 3 assisitive blocks of silicon that rangers mentioned, one of which is the audio dsp.

 

[Rangers]

The remaining question we have for the Durango that would give us a complete picture.

Main ram type and bandwith. Clamshell ddr3?

The nature of the 3 assisitive blocks of silicon that rangers mentioned, one of which is the audio dsp.

Could actually be DDR4 as originally rumored, going by that link posted a few pages back (seems DDR4 might/would be ready in 2013)

Not that it really matters so much to performance whether it's very high end DDR3 or initial DDR4, since they will be in the same speed ballpark.

Also, Bkilian's last post is indeed quite promising sounding!

 

[(((interference)))]

Proelite, back in June you posted this - which then proceeded to do rounds of the interwebz
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478941

It mentions a 1-1.2 TF GPU, why did you go from that to saying there's a GTX680 equivalent in the kits?

And do you still think Durango's has on 4GB of memory?

There's also a bluedevilstudent on the semiaccurate forum, saying special guys (aka Rangers) specs are accurate:
http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=175011&postcount=105

SpecialGuy on gaf pretty much posted the real specs for Durango in the Chinese rumor thread. It is spot on.

8 upgraded jaguar cores
8gb ram
8000 series gpu with specs that of a 7770 ghz edition + esram
+hefty pseudo gpu (unlike anything that we'll seen before) that assists the main gpu, marketing flops and documents don't include the numbers for part yet.
+general purpose dsp that can be used for audio or graphics

Durango GPU is basically a gcn2 7770 ghz edition with esram. 1.2 teraflops.

There is also some extra stuff in the box that makes it perform like a 3tf card in the real world.

Do we know this guy?

A pseudo GPU sounds interesting.

 

[McHuj]

The remaining question we have for the Durango that would give us a complete picture.

Main ram type and bandwith. Clamshell ddr3?

The nature of the 3 assisitive blocks of silicon that rangers mentioned, one of which is the audio dsp.

It could contain another DSP but one that's tailored to image processing. You can off load the CPU from kinect processing to it (or any other peripheral that needs it) . Video/Image decode/encode can be offloaded to it. Perhaps it can be used as a high-end resampler/scaler/post-processor for the frame buffer.

 

[XpiderMX]

There is also some extra stuff in the box that makes it perform like a 3tf card in the real world.

Is this possible?

Perhaps it can be used as a high-end resampler/scaler/post-processor for the frame buffer.

Faked 1080p?

 

[LXFBN]

Wait, so Durango has two GPUs now?

 

[XpiderMX]

+hefty pseudo gpu (unlike anything that we'll seen before) that assists the main gpu, marketing flops and documents don't include the numbers for part yet.

APU+GPU?

+general purpose dsp that can be used for audio or graphics

Kinect?

 

[Rangers]

If there existed tech to make a 1.2 TF GPU perform like a 3TF one, why the hell wouldn't AMD be using it already in PC?

And pseduo-GPU? Why not just build a bigger regular old GPU? It begs the question...

Seems dubious, though I'm ever irrationally hopeful

I'd bet any customizations are more subtle help than huge, but again I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Proelite]

Proelite, back in June you posted this - which then proceeded to do rounds of the interwebz
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478941

It mentions a 1-1.2 TF GPU, why did you go from that to saying there's a GTX680 equivalent in the kits?

Target specs for final kit versus what's need in a development environment to achieve the performance of the final kit.

And do you still think Durango's has on 4GB of memory?

It's 8.