Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[McHuj]

Welp, you're not gonna get that with GDDR5 anytime soon.

A 512-bit DDR3 bus would be needed to get anywhere near the same bandwidth league (still shit). DDR4 is going to be pretty low bandwidth initially as well, but at least you'll have stacking options to more easily hit 8GB.

What would be the size limit for a console memory bus? (Based on Samsung's GDDR website) if you can tolerate a 256-bit bus with 8 GDDR3 chips, you could get 4 GB of memory (assuming 4Gb GDDR3 chips are available in 2013) with a bandwidth of 83.2 GB/s (once again using Samsung's 2.6 Gbits/s quoted speeds)

If you look at their GDDR5 numbers , you could put together a 4GB system with a 256-bit bus and ~224 GB/s bandwith, but requiring 16 chips (and assuming only 2 Gb densities will be available next year).

Dropping the bus to a 128-bit limit and only 8 GDDR5 chips, you're limited to 2GB and about 112 GB/sec.

So then what's preferable:

System 1:
4GB GDDR3 with ~80 GB/sec bandwidth

System 2:
2GB GDDR5 with ~100+ GB/sec bandwidth

If we're looking at a reasonable console GPU and I consider the HD7770 one, it only has (needs?) 72 GB/s of bandwidth to get the great performance that it does. I'd take the 4GB of GDDR3.

 

[AlNom]

So how did you like the latency from CPU to RAM and back in XB360?

How did devs like the split pool in PS3? Oh wait, they didn't. Come on... not everything is perfect. It's always going to be some trade-off between hardware and software. How complex are you willing to make the motherboard if you want the CPU and the GPU to access both RAM pools? How many layers to the motherboard? How much wiring from each RAM chip? How many RAM chips?

I mean, latency isn't going to get any better with GDDR5. But supposing we are talking about a combined CPU and GPU, does that not make your question a moot point?

 

[fehu]

This time i can see sony having an edge over the amount of ram if they keep the dual memory pool model, maybe 2GB GDDR5 and 3GB or 4GB DDR3

If MS wants to keep the uma the best that they can do is 4GB over 256bit bus, not a realistic option...

 

[hoho]

How did devs like the split pool in PS3? Oh wait, they didn't. Come on... not everything is perfect. It's always going to be some trade-off between hardware and software.

Of course there are trade-offs. One such is total system memory capacity vs price vs performance vs ease of use. Split pool will give you capacity and performance at a system cost increase and (slight?) inconvenience for the developers. If there is a choise between 4G total vs 3+3G or pretty much any setup >4 GB I'm sure most would go with the latter. Obviously just going with 2+2 would not be the best idea. Increasing a single memory pool >4G won't be all that nice either as you'd either get segmenting or have to use pointers at twice the size.

If they really do use a SoC then yeah, split pool will be pretty bad idea. I'm still hoping not both of them will go that way though.

 

[forumaccount]

How did devs like the split pool in PS3? Oh wait, they didn't. Come on... not everything is perfect. It's always going to be some trade-off between hardware and software. How complex are you willing to make the motherboard if you want the CPU and the GPU to access both RAM pools? How many layers to the motherboard? How much wiring from each RAM chip? How many RAM chips?

I mean, latency isn't going to get any better with GDDR5. But supposing we are talking about a combined CPU and GPU, does that not make your question a moot point?

The only reason the split pool in PS3 is an issue is because people are trying to make games on PS3 and X360 at the same time at parity. Even then it would hardly be an issue at all if the bandwidth wasn't so terrible from RSX's pool. (At that point we'd only see people complaining about OS footprints and... uh... Cell.)

Gamecube's split pool was bad for a similar reason, but that was even worse.

 

[liolio]

OT and moved to the proper thread. For the record:

Spoiler

No optical drive in next generation hardware? I would like that but I wonder how they will manage to get the game prices where they wants while maintaining their margins.

I wonder if this rumors could be linked to the rumors about the next Xbox supposedly killing the second hand market (which might help to recoup the cost of the SD cards).

Precisely I wonder if MS could ship games on SD cards that are on the upper range of Vita nowadays cards, so 4GB-8GB.
Basically on those cards you have the .exe, having low quality assets (from sounds, to 3d model, to textures, etc.) so you can play the game straight of the box could be an option.
Something akin to the "HD" pack in BF3 is only available for download on LIVE (could be put online before actual release of the game as it would be unplayable till you buy the SD card for the game).

SD card would have a serial numbers that would be saved on LIVE, so each SD once used is linked to one and only one LIVE account. It's no longer possible for another users that would get his hands on the SD to download the "HD pack" (or whatever you call it).


So overall I would call the thing "soft" online distribution. Games are playable out of the box but you have a really strong intensive to connect to the LIVE, to get the "real experience". As a consequence second hand value of game crumbles.

 

[AlNom]

Before this gets too off-topic, there is the Alternative Distribution thread.

 

[Acert93]

Al, while I agree split pools can be troublesome -- especially if the competition does NOT do so -- I think there is this merit: What if you had to choose between 1GB of very fast VRAM and 6GB of DDR3 (CPU) or 2GB total fast UMA. It would be an interesting trade off... one potential benefit to the 1+6 model would be you could really stuff your system memory full as a cache.

 

[joker454]

I think it's all painfully simple. Two sku's, one low end, one high end, each running the Win8 software platform, each fully compatible with each other hence running the same games but with different abilities, the higher end sku being more powerful. The optical drive gets made an option, great for guys like me that have no need for it but still available for people that don't have broadband internet. This way at launch you target both high and and low end consumers, target those that like driving to the game store and those that prefer to jsut download their games, and still have support for blu-ray for those that want it as well as Netflix for those that prefer that. You hit every consumer type at once basically. Problem solved.

 

[Elan Tedronai]

How cool would it be if sony had 8 gigs of XDR 2 ram for both memory and video ram?

Gran turismo 6. Just imagine. A man can dream. Sadly the only guy who pushed technology to the extreme is no longer working there.


Ken please come back to sony

 

[AlphaWolf]

What is the fascination with xdr2? It exists only on paper. Right now I'd put its chances of an appearance in anything in the next 2 years right there with holographic media.

 

[anexanhume]

What is the fascination with xdr2? It exists only on paper. Right now I'd put its chances of an appearance in anything in the next 2 years right there with holographic media.

Probably the 16 transfers per clock cycle.

 

[MrFox]

In my case it was simply because xdr2 looks very good on paper, and it's well documented.
Now that there's a real chance of having memory on a silicon interposer, xdr2 doesn't make much sense anymore.

But I'm wondering, what is so special about memory production, is it a special process requiring a large volume to be profitable? Would it be stupid to adapt a memory chip for a console? Considering they are already making custom CPUs and GPUs, what would prevent them from contracting memory manufacturers for xdr2 in secret just like they do for the cpu and gpu?

 

[babybumb]

MS must really hate used games to go solid state. It would allow to control the use even without internet connection..

I dont really see them not including DVD/BD

 

[3dilettante]

But I'm wondering, what is so special about memory production, is it a special process requiring a large volume to be profitable?

Manufacturing processes are different for DRAM. Like any process that requires a multi-billion dollar factory, it needs a lot of revenue to be profitable.
It needs a lot of volume because it's hard to charge much for it.

 

[Elan Tedronai]

What is the fascination with xdr2? It exists only on paper. Right now I'd put its chances of an appearance in anything in the next 2 years right there with holographic media.

because it's the only memory available that is fast enough for the cell processor at the moment in terms of bandwidth and cost.

 

[AlphaWolf]

because it's the only memory available that is fast enough for the cell processor at the moment in terms of bandwidth and cost.

available
[uh-vey-luh-buhl]  
a·vail·a·ble

adjective
1. suitable or ready for use; of use or service; at hand: I used whatever tools were available.
2. readily obtainable; accessible: available resources.

 

[Elan Tedronai]

available
[uh-vey-luh-buhl]  
a·vail·a·ble

adjective
1. suitable or ready for use; of use or service; at hand: I used whatever tools were available.
2. readily obtainable; accessible: available resources.

xdr2 is available if sony chooses to do so. rambus and sony have been working together for years. xdr is not smoke and mirrors. it's the only memory fast enough for the current ps3 processor.

gddr3/5 are simply not fast enough

 

[AlNom]

No one is even sampling the technology. It doesn't get any more non-existant or unavailable than that.

 

[Elan Tedronai]

No one is even sampling the technology. It doesn't get any more non-existant or unavailable than that.

that's what they said about xdr too. i doubt sony cares who samples what. they went with xdr for the ps3 because other memory options didnt have the bandwidth the cell needed