Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

Status
Not open for further replies.
AMD is going to roll out their new GPUs Q4.

They've been delayed til 2012 already I think.

Halo 4 has already been explicitly confirmed for 360.

2012 next xbox, there's almost no way. We know lots about Wii U, and there's already lots of speculation we may not see it until September 2012. For Ms to launch something we know zero about in the same timeframe...not happening.
 
I've seen rumors as recent as a few days ago that they will be launching 28nm in early december.

Looking over the Southern Islands thread for the latest rumors, it looks like the lower performance or mobile 28nm AMD chips might hit Dec 6 (everything else later), and that seems to be a big maybe at best. I wouldn't hold my breath. Bulldozer was supposed to originally debut in June. Considering it's almost November...

AMD is apparently planning to introduce the first products using 28-nanometer graphics chips in December 2011. As Heise learned from business circles, it should be in the second week of December so far - a source specifically named the sixth December. Already a few weeks ago, one source said, AMD wanted the chips before 9 December - otherwise, the launch moves into next year.

Yeah, considering the lack of hard evidence, I would not hold my breath. And especially would not that AMD actually comes in on time.
 
Wall of interesting text.

Question, how many transistors would a 22 nm AMD GPU have on 330mm^2? My original guess pages back was around 4 billion for 260 mm^2, and thus around ~5 billion for 330 mm^2.

Imagine if consoles around 25 - 50x more powerful next gen without needing to handle a 4x increase in resolution. Xbox 360 was 10 - 15x the xbox according to a developer, but had to cope with 720p. As a mandate every next gen action game should run at 60fps.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Question to everyone, how many of you think that next gen consoles (PS4 & Xbox 720) will have most games running in 1080P/60 frames standard? I think Sony/Microsoft should enforce that just as most games this gen are 720P.
 
Question to everyone, how many of you think that next gen consoles (PS4 & Xbox 720) will have most games running in 1080P/60 frames standard?

Less than a third, maybe even less than 10%. I expect most games will be 1080 (or near enough) but I don't see 60FPS being that important to many slower paced games.
 
Question to everyone, how many of you think that next gen consoles (PS4 & Xbox 720) will have most games running in 1080P/60 frames standard? I think Sony/Microsoft should enforce that just as most games this gen are 720P.
Seems a waste to me, would you rather they used a 4x increase in power to show the same graphics just in 1080p60, or 4x better graphics?
 
Seems a waste to me, would you rather they used a 4x increase in power to show the same graphics just in 1080p60, or 4x better graphics?

I really expect a big jump in hardware performance from next gen consoles, the 360 will turn 6 years old this November when the Xbox 1 only lasted for 4 years, so I hope next gen consoles will have enough power to achieve 1080P/60fps and still look like a big jump graphically to what we have now. It’s something about the image solidity that I only notice on 60fps games that no other 30fps game can match especially when there are a lot of particle effects, 60fps just looks and moves a lot more real to me.

I also think 3D will be here to stay on next gen games, but it will really catch on with glass-less TVs, if that happens I think it would be a lot more easy for developers to design the games running in 60fps and just go down to 30fps when 3D mode is enabled, that way you can keep having the same image quality and support 3D.
 
I really expect a big jump in hardware performance from next gen consoles, the 360 will turn 6 years old this November when the Xbox 1 only lasted for 4 years, so I hope next gen consoles will have enough power to achieve 1080P/60fps and still look like a big jump graphically to what we have now. It’s something about the image solidity that I only notice on 60fps games that no other 30fps game can match especially when there are a lot of particle effects, 60fps just looks and moves a lot more real to me.

I also think 3D will be here to stay on next gen games, but it will really catch on with glass-less TVs, if that happens I think it would be a lot more easy for developers to design the games running in 60fps and just go down to 30fps when 3D mode is enabled, that way you can keep having the same image quality and support 3D.

I think 1080p is a huge waste during firefights, so I would like dynamic resolution to be ubiquitous in next generational titles. 1080p will be good for those slow moments where you want to look at the scenery, and 720p for firefights. 60 fps should be locked no matter what.

Question: Does 3D benefit from 60 fps as much as 2D?
 
I think 1080p is a huge waste during firefights, so I would like dynamic resolution to be ubiquitous in next generational titles. 1080p will be good for those slow moments where you want to look at the scenery, and 720p for firefights. 60 fps should be locked no matter what.

Yes I like the idea of dynamic resolution, especially in the way that Rage implements it on 360 where is 720P most of the time, is really hard for me to notice when it goes down. The same goes for dynamic AA.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Question: Does 3D benefit from 60 fps as much as 2D?
More actually.
With 3D we can notice that something is not right with the low framerate and it seems jerky.
We see jerky surfaces and not just plane with image that's 'out of sync' with everything else.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Well... 1080P@60Hz would allow for "free" 1080P 3D at 30Hz, which would be a blast, compared to what most 3D currently offer. On PC a lot of games scale perfectly linear when switching on 3D with TriDef, and that's without any real optimization done to the games. We'd need a new HDMI standard to allow for that, though, as currently 1080P 3D is capped at 24P, which is a bit low for gaming (though a lot of console games don't feed a lot more frames per second into the tv to begin with).
 
IMO, CELL sort of hit the mark.

It traded ease of programming with a big increase in compute density.

It was an outstanding hardware feat of integration. It's main problem was that nobody really knew how to program the thing when it was released, not even IBM/Sony. It took some time before developers were comfortable with it.

If CELL had launched with a clear vision of how to program it, - and the tools to support it (shader-like stream processing + job queues), we would have seen parity with XBOX 360 a lot earlier.

CELL's window of opportunity has passed, IMO. It's a poor general purpose CPU. At the same time GPUs have grown in capability and CELL would have a hard time competing on stream processing tasks.

Cheers
 
PROJECTION #1: Process Node.

Code:
Process    Density*    Date (TSMC)    Date (Intel)    Date (GF)
90    -        2005
65    2        2007
45    4        2009
40    5        2010
32    8        -
28    10.4        2011
22    16        -        2011
20    17.6        2013
16    32
14    42.6        2015
12    64
* Compared to 90nm. Typically a comparison of the “smallest structure” and not an average. Each design & process are unique.

Unfortunately, I think your roadmap for process node availability and adequate supply is out of line by two nodes starting with 28/32nm. End of 2013 will probably see adequate 28nm supply. Even end of 2012 is a bit suspect.


End of 2013 would be doable although as with all considerations, RAM is going to be more limited and expensive the earlier they push.


?
 
Interesting that Sony may be willing to give Microsoft a one year lead again - the only reason I can think of is that they want to trump the next Xbox again spec-wise. Whether or not the current PS3 was a more advanced machine tech-spec wise is open to debate (and been done a few hundred times on these forums) so let's not go there.

The difference in a year could mean more RAM, larger storage but I don't expect much else in differentiation to be honest unless 22nm is ready for mass production in 2014.
 
Interesting that Sony may be willing to give Microsoft a one year lead again - the only reason I can think of is that they want to try to trump the next Xbox again spec-wise.

I'm a PS3 fanboy, but honesty compels me to fix that for you. :smile:

Whether or not the current PS3 was a more advanced machine tech-spec wise is open to debate (and been done a few hundred times on these forums) so let's not go there.

Okay.
 
The difference in a year could mean more RAM, larger storage but I don't expect much else in differentiation to be honest unless 22nm is ready for mass production in 2014.

It's interesting, the node doesn't even mean everything, because I looked back and in fall 2006 G80 was on 90nm. Same as RSX in PS3.

Now, I think the 7800 RSX was based on started on 110nm.

But the point is being on 90nm didn't allow Sony to gain an edge, or at least they didn't take advantage of it. It's not like G80 (a far more advanced chip) needed 65nm to become achievable. I guess it therefore depends on where you aim as well. For example if you manage to hit the leading edge of 22nm, but you're just basically fabbing an older chip on it, it doesn't "help" you.

Then again from what I google, g80 was a massive 484 mm^2, vs 240 mm^2 for RSX. So I guess 90nm did enable more at die size x than a lower node would.

Anyways I guess looking at these new time frames in the develop article, it would be 28nm most likely? As I've stated often, I dont believe being remotely aggressive on nodes is reasonable, so I agree more with Alstrong's assessment. But then again, it does sort of seem to straddle the border to 22nm...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The RSX die size I was able to google was 240 mm^2, Xenos figure was 182 mm^2 parent die and 80 mm^2 daughter die (262 mm^2 total) (all on 90 nm).

GTX580 is 520 mm^2, HD 6970 is 389 mm^2. And that's on 40nm.

So if they have roughly the same budgets as last time, you could probably fit a GTX 580 or a HD 6970 in those budgets, on 28nm (I'm assuming a rough halving of die size per node). Or, a mid range of the next gen on 22nm, so to speak.

On 22nm, on the same ~240 mm^2 budget, you could probably fit a high end Southern Islands, or Nvidia Kepler chip in there. Sort of, leaving out the EDRAM to some extent, or leaving it off to the side, or squeezing it in somehow or other, depending, and depending how much you want. Of course keeping in mind, Kepler and Southern Islands will be last gen chip by the time these consoles launch. (or again, instead of high end Kepler/SI, you could get a mid range HD9xx or Nvidia Kepler+1 for the same effect).

For EDRAM, well if you got 10MB on 90nm, 20 on 65m, 40 on 40, 80 on 28nm, 160 mb on 22nm? You could save some space there it seems, I dont think you need 160 MB am I right? So perhaps you could fit your EDRAM in a 40 mm^2 die this time, if you "only" want 80 MB of it. That is if EDRAM still makes sense next gen, I'm unclear.

I would say the one fly in all these calculations is, what if the console manufacturers next gen are willing to increase their die budget? Say up to 300 mm^2, or even higher, for the GPU?

But yeah, high end AMD HD7XXX series or mid range HD9XXX (I use 9XXX because 8XXX will just be the refresh card) doesnt sound bad at all. That's IF we get to 22nm for next gen consoles. Subtract a gen from the GPU class otherwise .

It also becomes questionable if HD 9XXX would actually be out in time. There was a little over a year between HD5870 and HD6970, both on 40nm. If Southern Islands hits in first quarter 2012, the HD8XXX would hit in 1Q 2013, and perhaps the HD9XXX in 1Q 2014 if all goes well. Again, you'd be straddling some things. But I guess for our purposes it doesnt matter to much if you saw a high end HD8XXX, or a mid range HD9XXX in the console. They should perform similarly.

So yeah actually, I think that's pretty reasonable. on 28nm you might be looking at a HD6970 performance-class chip (in presumably next box here since we know their AMD connection). On 22nm you would be looking at a high end Southern Islands performance-class chip.

Unless that's not how it works out at all, heh.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top