Nintendo GOing Forward.

Last week at IEDM Crossbar announced that it is now entering the commercialization stage. [..] The beauty of RRAM is that it can be manufactured using a regular CMOS process with only a few modifications. [...] However, RRAM can efficiently scale to 4-5nm without any issues and in fact Crossbar has already demonstrated an 8nm chip that it built in its R&D labs [...] Moreover, RRAM can be stacked vertically to create a 3D crosspoint array for increased density and so far Crossbar is at three layers, but first commercial standalone chips are expected to feature 16 layers and up to 1Tbit capacity.

That's a massive increase over current nand isn't it? That could really make driveless consoles a reality with that capacity, internet problems not included of course. Great choice for Nintendo, a way to make a console much smaller and use less power which seem to be two important points for them. Too soon for their next offering but after that? A fourth Wii, Wii4All or Wii4Everyone.
 
Can't do interposer on a high-power ASIC, you'll cook your chip without it having direct contact to the heatsink. An alternative would be through-via stacking and sticking the RAM under the ASIC instead, but the need for thousands of vias to support the main ASIC would make the RAM die larger and less cost efficient than otherwise needed.


Why is this so urgent? It's basically the least urgent thing of all, pretty much. PS4 even has its HDD connected via USB3 for chrissakes... Consoles aren't I/O intensive, at all.


Well, a good 4x PCIe SSD today can do upwards of 1TB/s linear reads, meaning level load times would be pretty much instantaneous. :) SSD will likely be too costly still to be viable for next-gen consoles though, but I wouldn't expect (console) harddrives to hang on longer than that. They will probably get phased out sometime during the next gen, I'd think...

Stacked nand will take the cost out of the equation in the next few years. Samsung has 1Tbit die 3d nand planned for 2017 up from 128Gbit this year.
 
I think we're starting to veer into a "Predict the next-gen thread", but I do think SSD's will be cheap enough for the next gen at least in the 512 MB capacity. We're at about ~ 0.50 per gig now. I don't think it's unreasonable for that price to drop by a factor of 4X over the next 4-6 years. As long as the drive is user upgrade-able, the can ship with a smaller capacity. I'd rather have the system be design with fast data pipes, I'll take care of the size issues.

Back to Nintendo, I do hope that they go for a higher TPD in the next box. They don't need to hit ~100W, but even a 50W box (as opposed to the WiiU's 35W) would be a big upgrade. A 35W customized Carrizo APU I think would definitely put them in the ballpark of the X1/PS4, sure not as powerful on the GPU front, but sufficient, and certainly better on the CPU side.
 
Anything weaker than PS4, even to the smallest degree, would be a massive monumental disappointment if launched in two years' time. Just...super fail, all-around. It would just be a repeat of wuu; lame, and years late on top.
 
Anything weaker than PS4, even to the smallest degree, would be a massive monumental disappointment if launched in two years' time. Just...super fail, all-around. It would just be a repeat of wuu; lame, and years late on top.

I really hope it's not but I do take the point of the guys / gals in this thread about a large gap between both their devices being pointless.

I suppose a great deal depends on whether Nintendo are going with the one game over both platforms thing. If they are then you can almost guarantee that their next home console won't be anything powerful.

I'm not convinced that people will want to spend another $250 on a new Nintendo console though if the leap is only going to be WiiU-XB1 for instance. Will Nintendo games really benefit from that small a power increase, esp as we have now already seen HD Nintendo games ?.

If WiiU had been more powerful (even the oft rumoured 600GFLOPs) then I think it would have been a long time before we saw another console from them as Iwata has talked about graphical diminishing returns several times already last gen.
 
Anything weaker than PS4, even to the smallest degree, would be a massive monumental disappointment if launched in two years' time.

hm... disappointing to whom though? Are you talking in comparison to when the next systems arrive from MS/Sony? It's getting hard to do generational leaps cost effectively, but I suppose it'll depend on what they mean to target in 2018/2019.

Nintendo can still try to do something in-between PS4 & XO for 2016, but they need to keep the market price in their favour too or at least comparable - I'm not expecting 16nm to be cheap enough by then unless they go for something really small (dies per wafer)
 
hm... disappointing to whom though?
Gamers and developers. By 2017, friggen tablets will have graphics approaching the 4bone.

Nintendo can still try to do something in-between PS4 & XO for 2016, but they need to keep the market price in their favour too or at least comparable
They can do something weaker than PS4, three years after PS4 launched, if they want to remain the marginalized laughing stock of the console industry for yet another half-decade. Wii was a freakish fluke that will never repeat itself. Obsolete hardware in the stationary console space as a recipe for success is not viable and never will be again. It's debatable if it will even work in a handheld, considering how high-powered today's devices are. Any phone you buy today will have a hardware that completely annihilates the 3DS even with both hands tied behind its back. It's increasingly difficult to see why one should pay lots of money for a wimpy underpowered Nintendo handheld with that in mind; all they have as an advantage these days are buttons and that's it.
 
So next-gen Nintendo predictions should go there or stay here?
For all we know, next-gen Nintendo could very well be more of a current-gen (8th generation) console, like the Wii U being more of a 7th generation console regarding its capabilities.

ExtremeTech is quoting something said in a recent AMD conference as a clue pointing that Nintendo will use a new x86 APU for their next console:
At a recent conference, AMD’s CFO Devinder Kumar said that the company had two major new design wins. When pushed on the details, he elaborated a little further, “I will say that one is x86 and the other is ARM, and at least one will be beyond gaming, right … They [the customers] are going to announce it and then … you will find out that it is AMD’s APU that is being used in those products.”
 
What I don't understand from that quote (it's ambiguous to me), is it just two design wins and one of them happens to be for a gaming APU? Or two gaming APU wins with one having application beyond gaming? If it's the former, then my guess it's just Nintendo. If it's the latter, maybe on of them is some sort of APU for a VR helmet? I guess I don't see a Nintendo design win going beyond gaming. For QoL stuff, I imagine an AMD APU would be absolute overkill.
 
I do see them releasing new hardware in 2016, and I also see them coming up with some sort of customer loyalty program to reward those Wii U gamers who upgrade to their new hardware. They had talked about a customer loyalty program before, and if your cutting a systems life short, then it makes sense to make it less painful for your loyal hardcore Nintendo gamer to upgrade.
 
They can do something weaker than PS4, three years after PS4 launched, if they want to remain the marginalized laughing stock of the console industry for yet another half-decade.

Don't worry. Regardless of the hardware Nintendo goes with, Nintendo will remain the marginalized laughing stock of the console industry for yet another half-decade; they will utterly fail at Online Infrastructure and Software Services. They need to do a very extensive study and usage analysis of the PSN/XBLive services and offer identical user experiences. They won't. They'll remain Nintendo.
 
If nintendo can come out with a good online platform and a console that isn't too far from the xb1 and game third party support, they can market free online multiplayer as a selling point if everything executes well. It would still pretty much mean that nintendo enters 8th gen 3 years late but there might be enough people who will buy the console for nintendo exclusives and some third party support to give the console life.
 
Regardless of the hardware Nintendo goes with, Nintendo will remain the marginalized laughing stock of the console industry for yet another half-decade; they will utterly fail at Online Infrastructure and Software Services.
This is a really depressing, and depressingly sobering outlook for an old Nintendo fan like me (I've owned Nintendo hardware since 1982.) Yes, chances are high - uncomfortably high - that you're completely right in that assessment.

They need to do a very extensive study and usage analysis of the PSN/XBLive services and offer identical user experiences. They won't. They'll remain Nintendo.
Ever since online appeared on the scene in a big way, Nintendo has been like they were wishing this stupid fad would just go away, waving at it with a newspaper like a pesky fly so that they can go back to selling really overpriced cartridges to people. Alas, by now it should be bleeding obvious even to them that this is not going to happen. Nintendo online experience was absolutely pathetic with the wii (you couldn't even patch wii games post-release for chrissakes...), and it's only barely any better with the wuu. The nintendo online store is still not unified between their consoles, and it's a mess to navigate. Not to mention, slow download speeds and so on.

They COULD do better if they just wanted to, I'm sure they could. Shit, it's almost like it'd be difficult to do worse. :p They could just crack open their billion-dollar war chest and buy the necessary expertise. Hire the kind of people they need. If they wanted to...

Will they ever though? :(
 
If nintendo can come out with a good online platform and a console that isn't too far from the xb1 and game third party support, they can market free online multiplayer as a selling point if everything executes well. It would still pretty much mean that nintendo enters 8th gen 3 years late but there might be enough people who will buy the console for nintendo exclusives and some third party support to give the console life.

That's a really big if right there. Nintendo has done nothing to inspire confidence that it will develop a decent online platform for their next console. If they manage to pull off a decent online platform and powerful hardware they still have an uphill battle to face. Their current batch of exclusives may not cut it any more in terms of sending sales skyrocketing. It may be time for them to also develop mature content that will be able to sell to a wider audience. Who cares if it hurts their pure image, if it helps them attract more gamers then it will help them attract more 3rd party support. They've been successful so far in pigeonholing themselves into a niche position on the market but I do wonder how long it can last. Still going to say software only is their best bet unless they're QoL takes off.
 
Nintendo can and should make most (but not all) of their titles cross cross generational once this nextnextgen console hits store shelves. Of course still have a few exclusives to the newest console. They need to release Newtendo console ASAP (2016) with similar power to the PS4 & X1. This way Nintendo loyalist and the general public will see and know that Nintendo will support their consoles for the long haul even if they aren't successes. For games have Newtendo/wiiu versions have varying graphic details similar to PC, with essentially the same game on either platform but have one having perhaps higher fps, higher resolution perhaps sharper textures, draw distrance etc and a few more bells and whistles on the New Console version.

Nintendo can survive with this strategy and hopefully stop bleeding money. Make porting from ps4/x1 to Newtendo as cheapsimple as possible for 3rd party devs by having similar hardware.

I feel there are negatives to this strat, such as a split userbase of wiiu users and NEwtendo users, which will diminish the amount of 3rd party titles purchased on the next console, thus eventually causing devs to shy away form development. One option is reduce royalty rates until the userbase is established thus reducing developers risks while the userbase is low, and promoting more 3rd party games.

Nintendo makes lots of money anyways without 3rd party royalties, with the low slaes 3rd party games usually have on nintendo consoles.
 
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BRiT brought up Nintendo's crappy online experience. One area where they're still sadly lacking on the wuu is voice chat. There's no universal VC, it is per-game only, and who knows if Nintendo even provides any services whatsoever for that, or if it's entirely up to game devs and publishers to provide the necessary tech and online servers to run it.

Furthermore, the wuupad has both microphone and speakers, but IIRC, you can't use those for voice chatting. This might be one area where wuu's absolutely rock bottom terrible hardware is coming back to bite Nintendo. Speculation - rampant perhaps - I know, but why wouldn't you be able to use the very hardware Nintendo built into the system for something as obvious as voice chatting? Well, the pad mic is probably fairly omnidirectional, so you'd need to do processing on the audio to make it of decent quality to send out; cancellation of other voice chatters and in-game sound effects and music for instance. Wuu's DSP just might not be up to that task, and perhaps the CPUs aren't either, although doesn't Nintendo reserve one entire CPU core - which for the most part does absolutely nothing whatsoever during gameplay other than maybe load some stuff off of the optical drive, if that's the main CPU's job rather than "Starlet II", or whatever the ARM helper core has been nicknamed this time around... Surely audio processing could be handled there, to relieve players of the need to wear a headset in addition to hold a bigass tablet with duplicate speakers and mic built-in in their hands... :rolleyes:

As usual, Nintendo dodges their own ineptness with the excuse "it's to protect teh kiddies", but shit, you could have toggles in the parental controls section deciding if the wee bairns are allowed to voice chat in the wuu menus, or during in-game/matches, or just in the game lobby, or not at all. C'mon people, it's not rocket science, this stuff. :p *sighs*
 
What I don't understand from that quote (it's ambiguous to me), is it just two design wins and one of them happens to be for a gaming APU? Or two gaming APU wins with one having application beyond gaming? If it's the former, then my guess it's just Nintendo. If it's the latter, maybe on of them is some sort of APU for a VR helmet? I guess I don't see a Nintendo design win going beyond gaming. For QoL stuff, I imagine an AMD APU would be absolute overkill.
They said that one design win is "beyond gaming", so I'm assuming it's not about gaming. They claim one is x86 and the other is ARM. Very recently, AMD showed their ARM "Hadoop" platform for servers up and running, hence the assumption that the non-gaming design win is the ARM SoC.
Which, if correct, would mean the x86 custom SoC order is not the beyond gaming part.



BRiT brought up Nintendo's crappy online experience.

Nintendo isn't dependent on online services to make their console a success. That mistake was already made by microsoft last year and they learned the hard way.
By now, everyone in the industry should know that what sells best is something that simply lets you play games without getting in the way. (The problem with the Wii U is that the crappy hardware got in the way).
A single exclusive blockbuster game is likely to sell a lot more consoles than lists of achievements, leaderboards and gamesharing stuff.



One area where they're still sadly lacking on the wuu is voice chat. There's no universal VC, it is per-game only, and who knows if Nintendo even provides any services whatsoever for that, or if it's entirely up to game devs and publishers to provide the necessary tech and online servers to run it.

Furthermore, the wuupad has both microphone and speakers, but IIRC, you can't use those for voice chatting. This might be one area where wuu's absolutely rock bottom terrible hardware is coming back to bite Nintendo. Speculation - rampant perhaps - I know, but why wouldn't you be able to use the very hardware Nintendo built into the system for something as obvious as voice chatting? Well, the pad mic is probably fairly omnidirectional, so you'd need to do processing on the audio to make it of decent quality to send out; cancellation of other voice chatters and in-game sound effects and music for instance. Wuu's DSP just might not be up to that task, and perhaps the CPUs aren't either, although doesn't Nintendo reserve one entire CPU core - which for the most part does absolutely nothing whatsoever during gameplay other than maybe load some stuff off of the optical drive, if that's the main CPU's job rather than "Starlet II", or whatever the ARM helper core has been nicknamed this time around... Surely audio processing could be handled there, to relieve players of the need to wear a headset in addition to hold a bigass tablet with duplicate speakers and mic built-in in their hands... :rolleyes:

As usual, Nintendo dodges their own ineptness with the excuse "it's to protect teh kiddies", but shit, you could have toggles in the parental controls section deciding if the wee bairns are allowed to voice chat in the wuu menus, or during in-game/matches, or just in the game lobby, or not at all. C'mon people, it's not rocket science, this stuff. :p *sighs*


AFAIK, voice chat is pretty dismal in CPU cycles. Even the Vita does voice chat in all of its games using its mic. If it's not implemented in-game, you can set a party chat to run in the background. AFAIK the Vita doesn't have any dedicated hardware for voice input, so it's all done in the CPU.
 
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