ERP already has, he said that a 50% improvement in flops would not translate to significantly better performance, because those units would not be in use for the whole frame. At least I think it was ERP who was saying that. He even had numbers.
NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*
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Averagejoe
Regular
In other words like some have already say those data movers are not game changing.?
Move to where ? 8^)
The CPU should have data cache to workaround hitting the main memory all the time.
The specialized hardware units also have cache and local store for the same reason.
I don't know if PS4 have any DMA units. If the main memory were high bandwidth, the various processing units should be able to read/write large chunk of data quickly without DMA. It's only the isolated and random read/write that will bear the full latency. That's why the apps and OS will usually prefetch a chunk into the cache to hide/avoid the latency.
These are essentially best practices that work especially well for Cell too -- even though it has DMA. The same will likely be true for Durango if you want to maximize its performance.
Yeah, all the leakers forgot to mention the 3 teraflop discrete GPU hanging off the south bridge.
Seriously, I hope Samsung enters the console race and make the spec impressive console that we've always wanted. Korean nation pride probably would make sure that the system is at least twice the Orbis on paper.
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Averagejoe
Regular
I discus this theory already,the problem with it is that no one knows how efficient the PS4 will be which also depends on developers,i haven't see a PS system yet were sony hasn't done something that don't belong on that console without something that push the hardware to it very limits..
This theory is based on sony machine been not very efficient,that is just wrong.
Not saying that it could not be the case but i just think is wrong to mark the PS4 as less efficient,based on nothing.
Yep, all these notions that Sony's system won't be as efficient seems like a reach to me.
Yeah, all the leakers forgot to mention the 3 teraflop discrete GPU hanging off the south bridge.
Seriously, I hope Samsung enters the console race and make the spec impressive console that we've always wanted. Korean nation pride probably would make sure that the system is at least twice the Orbis on paper.
Lol , if there are new leaks in the future which leaks do we believe ? I'm going to assume those with a sony bias will prefer the ones that paint sony in the better light and those with a ms bias will choose the ones that paint ms in the better light .
Until we get confirmation who knows what these specs are actually from or how accurate they are .
If the ESRAM is 102GB/s as rumored I am going to throw this down as a prediction: 8 ROPs @ 800MHz. This is 6.4Gpixel/s and would require, yes, 102GB/s w/o MSAA if I did my math right.
And for giggles I will also predict Orbis (PS4) has 12 ROPs at 800MHz (9.6Gpixel/s requiring 152GB/s of bandwidth for peak fillrate with uncompressed data which modern GPUs make good use of).
If my above guesses are right based on the leaked data (???) Orbis doesn't only have a 50% higher compute (18CUs vs. 12CUs) but a large edge in Fillrate as well (50% more). If the TMUs hold firm at the same ratio, then Orbis is appearing to have 50% more GPU power across the board (Compute, Texturing, Fillrate).
It is too early without (a) having confirmed specs of the final units and (b) some architectural insights.
That said things are looking very slanted toward Orbis.
Durango and Orbis
Compute: 12CUs and 18CUs -- 50% more compute
Fillrate: (guess) 8 ROPs and 12 ROPs -- 50% more fillrate
Cores (after OS): 6 Cores and 7 cores
Bandwidth (system)*: 68GB/s and 192GB/s
System Memory: 8GB and 4GB (5GB and 3.5GB after OS, respectively)
* 32MB ESRAM makes it an unlevel comparison.
We don't know the ESRAM bandwidth yet (or how it functions) but at 102GB/s we are looking at Orbis having more bandwidth -- and more flexible memory (2/3 of the Durango bandwidth would be tied up in a 32MB memory space).
This isn't like the 360 and PS3 where the architectures were very, very different. Both are using the same Jag cores and both are using AMD's GCN if the leaks are right. If that is the case the above numbers, if confirmed, and we know how the consoles function we can get a pretty good picture of what will be better more often than not.
If AMD/NV know how to balance a GPU (I bet they do) then Pitcairn should be a pretty efficient GPU and investment of silicon. Obviously some units will always be idle in the pipeline but the key is striking a balance of ROPs, TMUs, and CUs to reach good efficiency. Seeing as Orbis is rumored to have a substantial amount of bandwidth (unlike RSX) it seems the system is tilted to make sure it runs as well as possible. Sure, would have a 64MB eDRAM module on top have helped alleviate one more issue? Sure. But designs are compromises and Sony seems to have made a safe, if uninspiring, bet. So far it looks to have been a really good one, too.
And for giggles I will also predict Orbis (PS4) has 12 ROPs at 800MHz (9.6Gpixel/s requiring 152GB/s of bandwidth for peak fillrate with uncompressed data which modern GPUs make good use of).
If my above guesses are right based on the leaked data (???) Orbis doesn't only have a 50% higher compute (18CUs vs. 12CUs) but a large edge in Fillrate as well (50% more). If the TMUs hold firm at the same ratio, then Orbis is appearing to have 50% more GPU power across the board (Compute, Texturing, Fillrate).
It is too early without (a) having confirmed specs of the final units and (b) some architectural insights.
That said things are looking very slanted toward Orbis.
Durango and Orbis
Compute: 12CUs and 18CUs -- 50% more compute
Fillrate: (guess) 8 ROPs and 12 ROPs -- 50% more fillrate
Cores (after OS): 6 Cores and 7 cores
Bandwidth (system)*: 68GB/s and 192GB/s
System Memory: 8GB and 4GB (5GB and 3.5GB after OS, respectively)
* 32MB ESRAM makes it an unlevel comparison.
We don't know the ESRAM bandwidth yet (or how it functions) but at 102GB/s we are looking at Orbis having more bandwidth -- and more flexible memory (2/3 of the Durango bandwidth would be tied up in a 32MB memory space).
This isn't like the 360 and PS3 where the architectures were very, very different. Both are using the same Jag cores and both are using AMD's GCN if the leaks are right. If that is the case the above numbers, if confirmed, and we know how the consoles function we can get a pretty good picture of what will be better more often than not.
If AMD/NV know how to balance a GPU (I bet they do) then Pitcairn should be a pretty efficient GPU and investment of silicon. Obviously some units will always be idle in the pipeline but the key is striking a balance of ROPs, TMUs, and CUs to reach good efficiency. Seeing as Orbis is rumored to have a substantial amount of bandwidth (unlike RSX) it seems the system is tilted to make sure it runs as well as possible. Sure, would have a 64MB eDRAM module on top have helped alleviate one more issue? Sure. But designs are compromises and Sony seems to have made a safe, if uninspiring, bet. So far it looks to have been a really good one, too.
For all we know the Durango needs it's "Special Sauce" in order to match the efficiency (but not performance) of the high bandwidth Orbis design. It has been reported that the Data Move Engines increase efficiency, but we can only conclude the efficiency is higher compared to a Durango without them (and, according to Arthur Gies, the 360's efficiency). What we can't conclude based on the information we have is if they make the Durango GPU more efficient that the Orbis GPU. That assumption is the premise behind all the "it's a wash" argument. Well, I don't grant the premise. We have no evidence to support it. It could just as easily be true that the Durango design would be crippled without the DMEs.
MS is in a position where they're loosing market size and relevance with tabs, phones and web services. They aren't in a position where they have financial problems though. While Sony is loosing market size left(Audio) and right(TV), its relevance is greatly diminished to its position a decade ago and is under heavy financial pressure.
Both companies under these circumstances would always prefer to keep/increase market size over gambling on squeezing the most money out of their remaining market size but I can't really fathom MS playing lowball here against Sony. It makes no sense to gambling away your hard fought market size if you're not limited financially.
P.S. I've wrote it elsewhere already but just taking over Sony at 13.4B might be a move which would limit the console costs and get audio/tv content for their box to compete with Apple.
Bagel seed
Veteran
So the DME are effectively there to hide memory latency? I guess the comparison can really only be made when we figure out the final memory config in Orbis. Someone leak those beta kit specs stat
This is all good information but my question is simple. What is a CU. We know what a CU is in GCN but do we know that either of these chips are GCN they could be GCN 2 which could have a different amount of shader blocks per CU or they might not even be GCN but something else.
The idea that AMD GPU is hugely more efficient than another AMD GPU released the same year is very flawed. Both of these GPUs might be 50% more efficient than last gen Xenos but thats about it.
I think Durango GPU will be ~8x 360 in real world performance taking into account higher rops, bandwidths etc. So around 8x Wii U (Wii U is not showing ANY iq improvements over 360 in multiple titles. "Better" GPU crippled) too. Enough to run frostbite 2 titles at closish to ~ultra 1080p60.. yeah.
Your memory comparison is flawed too. You cant cut corners like that adding up ESRAM bandwidth totals which is only to 32MB used for framebuffer. Performance wise there is little doubt high bandwidth setup will deliver better realworld results in most games. Look how much memory is currently used on PC games with insane settings on top of Windows. These GPUs arent that great that they will need beyond 4GB
The japanese government would never allow a Sony takeover. It's not a possibility. I can't believe so many people are suggesting that.
The Sony restructuring is so that they focus on three markets for R&D spending and Capex. Imaging, mobile and gaming. Those are the benchmarks to look at. They clearly stated that the other markets wouldn't get their focus, nor expansion/r&d/capex. No shit they lose market share there. They don't care. They were losing billions per year in TV because of the toxic joint venture to make their own panel. they dissolved all that ahd they make their TV with the best panel they can freely negotiate on the market. It's about f***ing time. The TV focus is to stop losing money, they don't care about market share.
First is imaging, where they invested billions to fab the best sensors in the world. The result is that they now provide sensors for all their competitors high-end products. Including the best SLR, which is from Nikon, and the best phone camera from Apple and Samsung. Investing a lot in R&D was their best move here. It worked.
Second is mobile, They invested a lot here too, and now they have a 150% higher market share this year, Sony is now the third biggest worldwide smartphone seller behind Samsung and Apple. They just started, and their first tablet after the restructuring (the Z) which will be a good test of the new management. So will be the xperia Z.
The third market is gaming... we'll see what they do with the PS4, let's use the other 2 markets as a reference for their vision. They'll invest as much as they want.
(the pattern here is that they don't try to gain the biggest market share, but make better products which their competitors cannot, and so nobody can undercut them)
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yep, totally agree with this. it's kinda unknown if stuff like the dma engines will improve performance relative to orbis, or is just necessities to deal with ddr3 without being choked, and so basically only gets you back to square one.
Albofighter
Newcomer
I sure hope you're right fox. I think the best and most cost effective solution for Sony is 3D stacking. It's possible 4 gb GDDR5 was only in the dev kits to make way of stacked ddr3/4 with high bandwidth and low latency. I believe it's also much faster to manufacture so Sony doesn't have to start production many months before like MS would have to. If they can provide full HSA and good enough hardware, then we're golden.
Next monday we should get another "leak" from vg leaks. I believe they also claimed that Sony would announce something in a few weeks. If true, then stacking seems less probable if Sony intents to release first. At the same time, a Sony rep last year claimed that the company never releases first so I honestly don't know what their strategy is.
Also this talk about a second xbox, I wonder if it's something insignificant like set top box, or xbox surface that no one will care about, or if it's a supped up console releasing later which would be awesome. Only 2 months left until we know everything so patience...
Next monday we should get another "leak" from vg leaks. I believe they also claimed that Sony would announce something in a few weeks. If true, then stacking seems less probable if Sony intents to release first. At the same time, a Sony rep last year claimed that the company never releases first so I honestly don't know what their strategy is.
Also this talk about a second xbox, I wonder if it's something insignificant like set top box, or xbox surface that no one will care about, or if it's a supped up console releasing later which would be awesome. Only 2 months left until we know everything so patience...
Umm, perhaps now is a good time to remember that starting with Cayman, all sorts of "move" engines have been present on ATI GPUs...sometimes explanations are not in need of magic sauce so as to hold their ground.
As a consumer I hope Durango has a boatload of fillrate and bandwidth to support it. I wish I had posted my poll this weekend BEFORE the leak but I would find it a curious situation if one console had a lead in compute but one was really pushing fillrate.
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