Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Silent_Buddha]

Microsoft not fully committed, or, more likely, they need full horsepower for the game.



http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1065361p1.html

It's one of the speculations for what finally pushed Bungie over the edge to demanding out from under MS control. The fact that MS appears to have an internal directive that all internal studios must produce a Natal game or include Natal controls in their game.

And I don't think Bungie wanted to compromise anything in Reach with regards to the core userbase. So easy way out for them was to either have much of the company leave en masse, or for MS to release control.

Again, not the only reason they wanted more freedom. But speculation that it was the straw that broke the donkey's back.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

[size=-2]Wow, you guys are not amazed by accurate finger tracking.[/size]

Heh, waiting for E3 announcements myself before getting TOO excited about anything. It's probably too late for finger tracking to have much impact on any of the rumored 14 games for launch.

Regards,
SB

 

[scently]

[size=-2]Wow, you guys are not amazed by accurate finger tracking.[/size]

Pffft, when we can talk about the negatives, why talk about the positives, seems like a waste of time.

 

[AzBat]

He wasnt 100% sure it was natal tech he was seeing, though he did end up assuming so. Was being demoed by a company other than MS. Probably was natal but could be another product entirely or a company looking for investors/licensees. Do we know what company it was? It was at CES he saw it i believe.

EDIT: transcript of the comments pachter made.

Also be aware Garnett Lee also said that finger tracking was coming along nicely too. This was said right before Pachter got in the discussion.

Tommy McClain

 

[Crossbar]

Also be aware Garnett Lee also said that finger tracking was coming along nicely too. This was said right before Pachter got in the discussion.

Tommy McClain

This goes against the precision of Natal that Microsoft mentioned not long ago, maybe the camera will have an adjustable lense like Playstation Eye that can give a zoomed in picture that allow fingertracking or maybe it will only work if you are close to the camera.

 

[patsu]

Based on earlier info, the camera can zoom in to specific area. However, to do finger gesture tracking, they can use the same full body tracking, or another simpler camera-based algorithm. For example, facial recognition does not require full body tracking.

 

[_phil_]

http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology

Prime sense has a 60 hz (higher rez ?) natal like product.I think MS has shares in Primes sense .

 

[Silent_Buddha]

This goes against the precision of Natal that Microsoft mentioned not long ago, maybe the camera will have an adjustable lense like Playstation Eye that can give a zoomed in picture that allow fingertracking or maybe it will only work if you are close to the camera.

MS already stated that finger precision was possible on Natal at 2009 E3, but that they weren't focusing on it.

Looks like something may have changed their minds possibly. Or one of the engineers had free time on their hands and went ahead and added it in.

Regards,
SB

 

[Crossbar]

MS already stated that finger precision was possible on Natal at 2009 E3, but that they weren't focusing on it.

They also stated that they would be including a CPU in Natal at E3, so we should not pay much attention to what was promised at that time.

However, his was mentioned by Kipman in January this year.

The system locates body parts to within a 4-centimetre cube

but it also says:

A player standing anywhere between 0.8 and 4 metres from Natal is illuminated with infrared light.

So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.

If you stand closer and stretches your hand towards the camera, you will probably have much better precision, so finger tracking may very well be possible in that case. The system could also ask you to move closer until it detects the hand properly so kids may have to stand closer to the camera than an adult. You will probably have to go through a setup sequence similar to the EyeToy games anyway before starting the game, so it coould just be a part of it.

 

[ShadowRunner]

http://www.primesense.com/category/product_technology

Prime sense has a 60 hz (higher rez ?) natal like product.I think MS has shares in Primes sense .

They were at CES, this is likely what people were seeing at the show.

Interestingly there official site links to an article saying that they are in competition with Natal:

http://www.gamerlive.tv/article/ces-2010-video-prime-sense-offers-project-natal-competition

Its an Israeli company. What was the name of the Israeli company that MS bought?

This device does the processing locally aparently but only costs $20-$30 for companies to incorporate into there devices? If true makes MSs decision to remove the processor to get to a $50 pricepoint look a little strange. Link gives a bit of info on how it works also:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/186552/minority_report_interface_shown_at_ces.html

At $20 sounds like a good alternative to PSEye for the Arc system


EDIT: Actual specs: http://www.primesense.com/category/reference_design

Quite impressive, accurate to 3mm on xy axis and 1cm on z, at a distance of 2 meters. Id expect finger tracking to be possible at that level of accuracy.
Looking further into it MS bought the company 3DV and was also working with PrimeSense in some capacity. Id take a guess that they are using the time of flight camera tech from 3DV(or there tech is based on same principal so bought them for legal reasons) and possibly the work they did with PrimeScene was bassed on there NITE middleware which is the part that works out the skeletal structure from the 3D image produced by the sensor. Total guess though.

 

[liolio]

They also stated that they would be including a CPU in Natal at E3, so we should not pay much attention to what was promised at that time.

However, his was mentioned by Kipman in January this year.


but it also says:


So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.

If you stand closer and stretches your hand towards the camera, you will probably have much better precision, so finger tracking may very well be possible in that case. The system could also ask you to move closer until it detects the hand properly so kids may have to stand closer to the camera than an adult. You will probably have to go through a setup sequence similar to the EyeToy games anyway before starting the game, so it coould just be a part of it.

Even if this talk about finger tracking is wrong, it would still be possible to track the fingers using the standard cam. Don't know if this is what they do (if they actual do/manage to do it )
Anyway I'm with you in regard to the wait&see attitude

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So the 4-centimetre cube may be the worst case scenario that would appear 4 meters from the camera.

If so, finger tracking should be readily possible at the near distance. There are ergonomic concerns for the player like that, but it's certainly workable. You'd be looking at finger specific games though. eg. That finger fighter game. I don't know that they can extend Natal to track fingers with the rest of the body, so that you could squeeze an imaginary trigger to fire a virtual gun in the direction your wrist is pointing.

We really need some details on what they actually mean by 'finger tracking'!

 

[patsu]

Zelda Wii Sequel Goes Motion Plus Only; Expected playable at E3:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/02/03/zelda_motion_plus_and_playable_at_e3/

Wii Motion Plus will feature heavily in the new Zelda game. In fact, Aonuma told Famitsu that it will be Wii Motion Plus exclusive. This was actually an area that was under debate at the outset of development. "After actually making it compatible," said Aonuma, "it just feels so natural. Link's sword and the controller that you're holding become one."

 

[ShadowRunner]

Image of Natal. Looks very similar to the PrimeSense product:

PrimeSense:

 

[patsu]

Sony registered eyepetarc.com:
http://www.brandsonly.nl/ps3/2010/02/04/eyepet-to-play-nice-with-arc-motion-controller/

ollowing up with our search that uncovered Sony’s registering of the domain, PlayStationArc.com, we’ve found yet another interesting domain registered to none other than Sony. This time the domain we’ve uncovered via a “whois” search is EyePetArc.com, which suggests EyePet will work with Arc when it finally releases this fall. The combination is a natural fit considering both EyePet and Arc will require a PlayStation Eye to function.

Looks like Arc will be the official controller name. Instead of Arc-this, Arc-that; it's this-Arc, that-Arc.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Even if this talk about finger tracking is wrong, it would still be possible to track the fingers using the standard cam. Don't know if this is what they do (if they actual do/manage to do it )
Anyway I'm with you in regard to the wait&see attitude

If MS doesn't have the brains, or isn't providing the resources to achieve that, they should just stop all development of Natal. I'm not saying that it should be a primary means of interfacing, but there's no reason the hardware shouldn't be capable of it. The open source community has pulled it off with RGB webcams. This is the best video I could find of Community Core Vision (a multitouch surface API), but I've tried it out at home, with the camera pointed directly at me, instead of at a silhouette through a touch surface, and I was amazed at how quickly and smoothly it followed my fingers. I can rotate my hand, and the occluded joints disappear, but it never loses track of where my fingers are going. Natal even has a leg up in that it knows exactly where in a scene to look for a hand so it can filter the rest of the image out for finger tracking.

 

[patsu]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/augmented-reality-mirror-picks-makeup-for-the-ladies-video/

cosmetic giant Shiseido has finally rolled out its Digital Cosmetic Mirrors in Tokyo malls to help speed things up. The machine is able to recommend products for the user's skin type, while allowing them to view it applied via an augmented reality effect.

 

[Iron Tiger]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/04/augmented-reality-mirror-picks-makeup-for-the-ladies-video/

I wish they would have used a model with a more "generic" face. I had to keep looking at the reference image to see if the AR wasn't glitching. Is this Toshiba's thing, or something else?

 

[patsu]

I have noooo.... idea !

Here's another concept. Gestures should work as snappy as this:
http://www.gesture-cube.com/

 

[AzBat]

Image of Natal. Looks very similar to the PrimeSense product:

PrimeSense:

Here's the mock-up shown at E3...

Looks like it might have gotten a little smaller. Thank God. I like the Gorillapod add-on, gives it character. I can totally see MS going for the cute design where the peripheral looks like some kind of character/animal etc...

BTW, why does it say "Class 1 Laser"? Wasn't aware it had a laser.

Tommy McClain