Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Silent_Buddha]

Looks like it might have gotten a little smaller. Thank God. I like the Gorillapod add-on, gives it character. I can totally see MS going for the cute design where the peripheral looks like some kind of character/animal etc...

BTW, why does it say "Class 1 Laser"? Wasn't aware it had a laser.

Tommy McClain

Imagine the possiblities for bundles if they can customize the "cute" exterior. Doubtful it would happen due to costs, but would be interesting. For example a Viva Pinata bundle with a Natal controller looking like a character from it.

Maybe if Natal slotted into a "stand". That would make the "stand" and shell interchangable. Interesting possibilities. Which could also open up a 3rd party market of custom Natal stand/shells. Heh, huge marketing opportunity that MS will probably completely miss out on.

Mobile Gundam Shell/stand. Warthog Shell/stand. Endless fun.

Regards,
SB

 

[Iron Tiger]

Perhaps Ms didn't ditched the internal processor after all? The Prime Sense site says that they need one of those fancy tvs with onboard processors to be able to use their camera...

What i mean is that perhaps the performance figure Ms gave was just the overhead for using the system, even if all the processing remains inside the camera. (TBH, i thought that 10-15% of 360's resources for all the computing natal is supposed to be doing seemed rather low)

Actually, that seems very high for a 30Hz input that shouldn't be any more complex (after filtering) than a DualShock 2.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Are we even sure that this Primal Sense thing is indeed Natal?

I mean why would MS buy the company 3DV and their tech, parade it around at E3, release all the technical specs and stuff to developers so that they can already start making games for the thing... only to now ditch all of that and start again with a different company at the beginning of 2010.

I would hazard a guess that the primal sense tech is a completely different animal all together and certainly not MS or Natal related. I would assume Natal's HW specs are already set in stone, given that they intend to ship the thing fall this year with enough software (which provided they are smart - and i'm sure they are - they'll give devs enough time with the HW to ensure Natal isn't launched alongside a plethora of shovelware).

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Also consider that MS bought 3DV mostly for the patent portfolio than the actual hardware, although I'm sure after the purchase they'll leverage their experience with hardware.

And have licensed from other companies in order to avoid patent infringement.

All work with Natal was done independant of those other companies according to MS.

Regards,
SB

 

[LightHeaven]

Adding more fuel to the fire:

http://blogs.ft.com/techblog/2009/09/microsofts-natal-secrets-revealed/

According to this blog, Ms has actually built natal with the help of Gesturetek (that's kinda expected as that company holds pretty much all patents regarding image recognition, but they also have a 3d camera), Prime Sense and Canesta, and of course 3Dv systems. The article raises a very interesting fact: Prime Sense only becamen secretive about its partnerships after Ms allegedly contacted them.


This other article also says Ms has partner up with that but Canesta: http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/29/p...ofts-secret-gesture-control-system-for-games/

And it point outs an interesting fact: Ms has contacted pretty much all the companies in the world which presented a working solution for 3d cameras using infrared, but what for?

I wonder if natal is a junction from tech from all these other companies, if Ms only grabbed the one they thought the best, or even if Ms really just bought 3dv for patents, while the technology is all internal and just made some deals with all these companies to prevent anyone else to use a similar setup on a controller.

Training the camera to interpret poses using machine learning algorithms does seem something very particular to natal.

Actually, that seems very high for a 30Hz input that shouldn't be any more complex (after filtering) than a DualShock 2.

Yeah, that's true... But hopefully in 5 more days Ms will finally clear things up on Gamefest... I just hope they don't block all presentations regarding Natal...

 

[Nesh]

And it point outs an interesting fact: Ms has contacted pretty much all the companies in the world which presented a working solution for 3d cameras using infrared, but what for?

To issue agreements with them on any similar technology. They reduce possible future competitionso that for competitors it will be harder to find partners involved on such solutions and come up with a similarly competitive product. MS wants to hold the "innovation" as tight as possible in their hand for a competitive advantage.

 

[obonicus]

Yeah, quite likely to be patent shenanigans. The Immersion fiasco didn't end so cleanly, remember.

 

[dobwal]

Yeah, quite likely to be patent shenanigans. The Immersion fiasco didn't end so cleanly, remember.

I agree. Since, these companies are so small its better to pay them off now or buy them completely so that MS doesn't get hit with a bunch of litigation without their own portfolio of patents and patent licenses. Or use that portfolio of patents to hit others who infringe too closely to Natal.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And considering how closely MS is being watched by virtually everyone. They appear to be going out of their way to make sure they aren't infringing on anyone's patent's and licensing where they might be.

In the MS litigation happy world we live in now, to do otherwise would be to open themselves up to lawsuits left and right if Natal became a hit.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

One of the MS executives (Shane Kim ?) already acknowledged that they are playing a patent "game" when Natal was first revealed.

If they can button down the details, they should be able to market aggressively before Natal is launched to build hype (like the 1984 SuperBowl Macintosh ad before anyone saw it).

 

[patsu]

First fishing game using Wiimote+:
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/02/05/wii_motion_plus_fishing/

 

[Iron Tiger]

This thing claims to do 3D motion tracking with any standard webcam, but the initial application doesn't scream "Natal Killer."

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not really possible to glean accuracy from that clip. EyeToy was doing similar with it's later Play titles AFAIK (though I haven't played any past ETPlay 1). The other serious issue is lighting. Natal uses IR so is immune to lighting conditions. Optical methods will be affected by environment and camera quality.

 

[patsu]

Yap, unless that light ball can help PSEye in some way (e.g. have IR magic, or equivalent), Sony will suffer from weak/inconsistent lighting condition that plagued PSEye from time to time.

 

[MfA]

It's internally lit and diffuse. If you have lights harsh enough to drown out the internal coloured lighting and shadows stark enough to make it unrecognisable as a sphere you have bigger problems (blindness). It's not like IR is rare either, it's just that it's very hard to confuse the structured lighting primesense uses with some random remote ... an evenly colored circle shape is also pretty highly structured.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yap, unless that light ball can help PSEye in some way (e.g. have IR magic, or equivalent), Sony will suffer from weak/inconsistent lighting condition that plagued PSEye from time to time.

As MfA says, the lightball is safe. It's the use of a camera to track the body that'll prove problematic.

 

[patsu]

Aye, I meant using the light ball to help the camera see better. Not using the light ball for motion sensing itself.

 

[MfA]

Yes, and I'm saying that it's ridiculous to expect it needs more help than simply being lit.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Aye, I meant using the light ball to help the camera see better. Not using the light ball for motion sensing itself.

As in illuminating the player?

 

[patsu]

Yes, something like that. Have to look at what's inside the light ball, and what it's capable of.

Yes, and I'm saying that it's ridiculous to expect it needs more help than simply being lit.

Will it work reliably ? Where and how to lit the player for best effects ? Using Arc ? Is it "strong" enough ? Is it automatic ? etc.

I think there are quite a few uncertainties and questions to ensure a good PSEye "read" -- if Sony does not address the lighting condition adequately.