You Americans better make Bush win this election

If it's such a bad case then the US government would have already stepped in and acted.

If not then why not?

It's kind of funny seeing some Americans worry about outsourcing when Australian high tech industry is catching up really quick and we are getting a lot more high tech jobs over here.

Anyway, mass outsourcing will eventually slow down and may even come to an end.


epicstruggle said:
Just so its clear to you kiler. The jobs that are migrating/moving to india china are good paying high-tech jobs. In the range of $50k-$75k per year. Manufacturing jobs that could have moved overseas are mostly there now. Crayons are no longer made in the US.

Look I have no problems with jobs going to india/china. But the problem is that this will not end poverty. Yes money will enter those markets, but the population factor will only cause them to fire high paid workers(for their country) for those coming up.

later,
epic
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
Anyway, mass outsourcing will eventually slow down and may even come to an end.
Yes, when most of the jobs of the high-tech jobs are done outside of this country.

later,
epic
heres a list of companies (a long list) that have taken jobs overseas:
3Com
3M

A
Accenture
Adaptec
Adobe Systems
Advanced Energy Industries
AMD
Aetna
Agere Systems
Agilent Tech.
AIG
Alamo Rent A Car
Albertson's
Alliance Semiconductor
Allstate
Alpha Thought Global
American Express
American Standard
Amphenol Corp.
Andrew Corp.
AOL
Applied Materials
AT&T
AT&T Wireless
A.T. Kearney
Avanade
Avery Dennison

B
Bank of America
Bank of New York
Bank One
Bear Stearns
Bechtel
BellSouth
Best Buy
Black & Decker
BMC Software
Boeing

C
Capital One
Carrier
Cendant
Cerner Corporation
Charles Schwab
ChevronTexaco
Ciena
Cigna
Circuit City, Inc.
Cisco Systems
Citigroup
Coca-Cola
Comcast Holdings
Computer Associates
Computer Sciences Corporation
Continental Airlines
Convergys
Cooper Tire & Rubber
Cooper Tools
COVAD Comm.
CSX
Cummins

D
Dell Computer
Delta Air Lines
Direct TV
Discover
Document Sciences Corp.
Dow Chemical
DuPont

E
Earthlink
Eastman Kodak
Eaton Corporation
EDS
Electroglas
Electronics for Imaging
Eli Lilly
EMC
Emerson Electric
Ernst & Young
Expedia
ExxonMobil

F
Fedders Corporation
Fidelity Investments
First American Title Ins.
First Data
Fluor
Ford Motor
Franklin Mint

G
Gateway
General Electric
GlobespanVirata
Goldman Sachs
Goodrich
Google
Greenpoint Mortgage
Guardian Life Insurance

H
The Hartford Financial Services Group
HealthAxis
Hewitt Associates
Hewlett-Packard
The Holmes Group
HSN

I
IBM
IndyMac Bancorp
Innodata Isogen
Intel
Intl. Paper
Intuit
ITT Educational Services

J
Jacobs Engineering
Jacuzzi
JDS Uniphase
Johnson Controls
Johnson & Johnson
JPMorgan Chase
Juniper Networks

K
KANA Software
Kaiser Permanente
Keane
KLA-Tencor

L
Lawson Software
Lehman Brothers
Levi Strauss
Lexmark International
Lifescan
Lillian Vernon
Linksys
Lockheed Martin
Lowe's
Lucent

M
Maritz
Marshall Fields
Mattel
Maytag
McDATA Corporation
Medtronic
Mellon Bank
Merrill Corporation
Merrill Lynch
Metasolv
MetLife
Microsoft
Monsanto
Morgan Stanley
Motorola

N
Nabco
National City Corporation
National Life
National Semiconductor
NCR Corporation
Network Associates
Newell Rubbermaid
New York Life Insurance Co.
Northwest Airlines

O
Office Depot
ON Semiconductor
Oracle
Otis Elevator Co.
Owens Corning

P
palmOne
Parker-Hannifin
Parsons E&C
Pearson Digital Learning
Pericom Semiconductor
Perot Systems
Pfizer
Pitney Bowes
Planar Systems
Portal Software
Pratt & Whitney
Primus Telecom
Procter & Gamble
Providian Financial
Prudential Insurance

Q
Qwest Comm.

R
Rainbow Technologies
Raytheon Aircraft
Regence Group
Rogers
Rohm & Haas
RR Donnelley & Sons
Russell Corporation

S
SAIC
SBC Comm.
SEI Investments
Siebel Systems
Sikorsky
Solectron
Sovereign Bancorp
Sprint
Sprint PCS
State Farm Insurance
State Street
StorageTek
SunTrust Banks
SurePrep
The Sutherland Group
Sykes Enterprises
Synygy

T
Target
Tecumseh
Telcordia
TeleTech
Texas Inst.
Thrivent Financial for Lutherans
Time Warner
Triquint Semiconductor
TRW Automotive
Tyco Electronics
Tyco Intl.

U
Unisys
United Online
United Tech.

V
VA Software
Veritas
Verizon

W
Wachovia Bank
Washington Group Intl.
Washington Mutual
WellChoice
West Corporation

Y
Yahoo!
 
london-boy said:
As you said, this could be very well the beginning of the end of world poverty

The irony is it could actually be the begining of worldwide poverty, just not for every person, but instead every country. In other words the amount of poor people in currently developed countries will increase, but that is how balance works I guess.
 
Sxotty said:
london-boy said:
As you said, this could be very well the beginning of the end of world poverty

The irony is it could actually be the begining of worldwide poverty, just not for every person, but instead every country. In other words the amount of poor people in currently developed countries will increase, but that is how balance works I guess.


In the end you have to think about society just like a big family. There are only so many resources, there is only so much money. We cannot make everyone rich without stripping this planet of everything.
What MUST get into people's head is that short-termism is not good enough to continue our existance in this planet. And sadly short-term gains is what most people care about.

(wow, now that was deep...)
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
Why isn't your President doing anything if outsourcing is so severe?
3 reasons:
-our president is a free trader. However this only works with a completly fair and balanced playing field.
-many lobbiest (some from india/china) are making sure that both democrats and republicans dont eliminate all the outsourcing.
-a harsh/drastic change in policy could stall the world economy.

later
epic
 
I'm sorry to sound terribly politically incorrect, but if u were an international company, you'd be outsourcing workers according to tasks performed in the time it takes to book the airtickets.

Where i work, we have offices all around the world, therefore outsourcing would not be the perfect term since every office has its own independence (with obvious HQs in London - where i am - Singapore and Philadelphia), but i'm sure the company as a whole is saving a lot on the wages in Thailand, Africa and other offices in poorer countries, compared to the kind of wages we get here in London (to name one) for the same job titles.

Thank god my job is not "outsourceable"... :?
 
Humus said:
That jobs are leaving western countries and goes to third world countries is something good IMO. It's the essence of how capitalism in the long term will actually solve the inequality problem. Third world countries that have liberated their market and opened up for foreign investment grows at rates far beyond that of developed countries. For instance have south korea gone from poverty similar to many african countries to almost western standards in just 25 years.
Your are absolutely correct Humus. Except free trade must also include true market value for currency exchange.
 
epicstruggle said:
K.I.L.E.R said:
Anyway, mass outsourcing will eventually slow down and may even come to an end.
Yes, when most of the jobs of the high-tech jobs are done outside of this country.

Nope, by the time today's third world countries have reached a standard where it's not much cheaper to outsource to these countries, it will come to an end and jobs may even flow back. It could, if things were don't right by the third world countries' governments, happen within there or four decades.
 
Sxotty said:
london-boy said:
As you said, this could be very well the beginning of the end of world poverty

The irony is it could actually be the begining of worldwide poverty, just not for every person, but instead every country. In other words the amount of poor people in currently developed countries will increase, but that is how balance works I guess.

This would only be the case if there were a fixed set of jobs, a fixed set of capital etc. that were to be distributed. Fortunately, that's not the case. The economy is not a sum zero phenomena.
 
As i said, the total amount of resources available to society is constant over the short term. The real problem is the distribution of these resources.
There are many things that are bad for distribution, and therefore bad for society, the worst one is Monopoly (any kind of monopoly).
To a certain extent, outsourcing is a good thing for society and for distibution of resources. Of course it has to be reciprocal, so that both countries benefit from each other's in/output.
So far it has not been so bilateral, and as i said, at the moment we are at the "wrong" end of the stick, if you know what i mean.
 
london-boy said:
So far it has not been so bilateral, and as i said, at the moment we are at the "wrong" end of the stick, if you know what i mean.

That really depends on how you look at it.

As "low paying jobs" get shipped out, this means the U.S. population needs to educate itself to provide higher value services. This is capitalism in essence.

The challenge for Americans (and whatever country is reporting jobs to "cheap labor" countries), is to educate and advance ourselves such that we continue to make valuable contributions to society.

If "slave labor" programming skill is so plentiful (easy to come by) such that almost anyone can do it...then anyone will do it. And they'll do it for less if everyone competing for the same jobs...and why shouldn't they?

Again, this poses a challenge to those who's job skill used to be more valuable and rare. But such it capitalism...just because your skills are marketable one day, doesn't mean they are makretable the next. Training...retraining...and retraining yourself again are the keys to maintaining marketability. This is not easy...but this is why those who do it get rewarded.
 
Today, an Indian programmer cost 1/5 the wage of a US programmer of equivalent experience. Running your development center thousands of miles away imposes an extra overhead.

As the economy in India rises, so will the wages. Eventually, in 10 or 20 years, it won't be nearly as economical to off-shore jobs there.

On the other hand, if the trend continues, then the US current account deficit will balloon even more. Coupled with the budget deficit, this is going to drive the US dollar down even further, which increases the cost of overseas labor. Moreover, the Indian rupi is very devalued right now(went from 15:1 to 45:1 over the last decade)

There is an artificial situation right now that makes off-shoring very compelling to India, but one of any number of factors could put a stop to that gravy train quickly. Just like the Chinese did with manufacturing, I am willing to bet that the Indian government will do anything they can to prevent the gravy train from stopping.

In the end however, there is nothing to prevent any country with a highly educated workforce from competiting in IT with any other. It's *information*, so you need very little capital to startup. The biggest expense is good people.

The US cannot maintain an indefinite lead in IT because of the nature of how easy it is to copy and distribute information. The only real recourse is to keep researching new tech, be the first mover, and grab the market quickly, make your money, and move on to the next thing when the Indians catch up. The US has the one advantage right now that matters in tech: lots of money to burn on research.

Future laborers should expect to switch careers frequently. I've already started doing some biotech, since I expect the next big boom to be at the intersection of computer science and molecular mechanics/biotech/nanotech.
 
DemoCoder you have hit the nail right on the end.

It's not just India that is picking up all these high tech jobs, I'm sure I mentioned Australia is also picking up with those kinds of jobs.

We are catching up to the Americans. :D

Australia was always behind when it came to IT, we are getting there. Free trade will help Australia's IT sector.
 
DemoCoder said:
On the other hand, if the trend continues, then the US current account deficit will balloon even more. Coupled with the budget deficit, this is going to drive the US dollar down even further, which increases the cost of overseas labor. Moreover, the Indian rupi is very devalued right now(went from 15:1 to 45:1 over the last decade)
What do you do with China. They have locked their exchange rate to 6.8 to the dollar. So instead of cost rising as it should, they actually lower since the vaule of the dollar lowers. Great article about this on business week, ill look for the link.

later,
epic
 
K.I.L.E.R said:
Why isn't your President doing anything if outsourcing is so severe?
I love how so many people have such a huge misunderstanding of how the US government works. It's very simple really- people and companies with lots of money pay pliticians to do what they want, if it's an election year then the politicians use some of that money to spread as much BS as they can to make themselves look better and their competetors look worse in the peoples eyes. Currently, there is practically nothing to prevent this sort of bribery and it's totally legal.
 
Even if China didnt lock its currency it would do other things like strictly control wages and other costs of production in order to see that gravy train continue which is helping that country take the short cheap road to modernity. The perils of doing business with a dictatorship that can so easily manipulate the freemarket.

Then again we need China to continue to open up... rock and a hard place for now.
 
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