"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Farid, Sep 1, 2007.

  1. EsppiraK

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    This is Ps2 level of geometry territoryfor characters, yet they look way inferior they use the ninja toolset don't they? It may be related.
     
  2. Nesh

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    when was this released? Why were they modeled so badly? where did they make them?
    there is a lot of wasted polygons. Talk about efficiency in a time when polygon budget was even more important
     
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  3. Cloofoofoo

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    I think regardless of the toolset this seems like an artistic problem. Maybe lack of experience / budget rather than technical. Or maybe the designs just aren't that exciting.
    Think about this at 3000 triangles you got the character from the bouncer and the cutscene models of crisis core and other square enix games on ps2 and psp. Some one extracted a model from Virtua fighter 4 on the ps2 and it's around 8000 triangles. Similar polygon count to the elephant on the high lod. I think it's just a lack of good design or maybe modeling experience.
     
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  4. Nesh

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    Can we see the models with their topology? It would be very revealing how they used those polygons and where they could have optimised
     
  5. EsppiraK

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    Looking at the way they are modelled a lot of polys are wasted on the joints
     
  6. Cloofoofoo

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    Sure I'll post it when I get the time. Basically the high lod have panels, grills , beveled edges, body indentations modeled. While the mid lod is more basic
     
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  7. Cloofoofoo

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    Here they are with wireframe overlay. This time its the buffalo and lion. You know the high lod models used in the replay were probably that high because even with such models the polygon budget barely broke 1 million during replays I suspect.
    Even during worse case scenario all enemies huddled next to player which is like 5 of them times lets 2000 triangles on average for the medium lod models per enemy then of the 10,000- 20,000 triangles of the track only a really small section is always seen lets say around 4,000 triangles( iam being generous, depending on the track a section could go as low as 1,200 triangles). The replay players character buffalo 7,300 triangles plus a sled thats around 1,800 triangles. All that times 30 frames per second.

    2,000 x 5 = 10,000 triangles for the enemies + 4,000 for the track section + 7,300 for buffalo on replay + 1,800 for a land sled = 23,100 x 30 fps = 693,000 tris per second. Might be wrong(could be higher because iam not counting enemy sleds, turrets and enemy or player weapon/weapon effects) but that is the impression I get.

    Buffalo high lod - 7,309 triangles
    zusar_buffalo1.jpg

    Buffalo mid lod - 2,608 tris
    zusar_buffalo2.jpg

    Lion high lod - 6,268 tris
    Zusar_lion1.jpg

    lion mid lod - 1,794 tris
    zusar_lion2.jpg
     
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  8. Cloofoofoo

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    Next game up Tee off golf for the dreamcast. I guess appearances arent everything because this game might be pushing somewhat hefty amount of geometry at 60fps. Very high polygon characters for 1999. The sequel was done by another company and it came only in japan.

    The sequel is considerably lower in polygon count and the courses are also lower. The highest character in Golf Shiyouyo 2: Arata Naru Chousen is around 3,000 triangles(on average seems to be 2,000) while the courses range from 3,000 to 4,500 triangles. So I am not covering that one.

    Tee off - bottoms up - dreamcast

    Jurian - 6,119 tris
    tee_jurian.jpg

    Chris - 5,571 tris
    tee_chris.jpg


    Random course - 5,656 tris
    tee_course.jpg

    All golf clubs - 1,764 tris
    tee_clubs.jpg

    Tee marker thing - 300 tris
    tee_teemark.jpg

    Golf ball - 528 tris
    tee_golf.jpg
     
  9. EsppiraK

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    Tbh I find that level of geometry insulting. 6000plys for that characters, tekken tag has that level of geometry in characters, rule of rose main character, primal and many others has fewer polys for the main characters....
     
  10. Nesh

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    Can you send me an FBX for the buffallo and lions both Hi and low LODs?
    I am interested to see where these polygons are going
     
  11. Cloofoofoo

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    Or kratos from god of war on the psp lol. I think for the next game Ill retread seventh cross evolution. The main character is always quite high poly for the time and not to mention it could change its limbs.


    Sure. Ive included fbx and obj files in zip. Let me know whats your conclusion on the models.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. milk

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    I feel like these early dreamcast games were splurging out with polys on round surfaces hiding all those sharp corners they had no choice but to live with during ps1 and n64 eras. Yet, the var was still relatively low on modeling quality and actual details
     
  13. Cloofoofoo

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    I returned to d2 for a more indepth look at it. I must say their modeling is really nice for the polygon budget they had. I think other dreamcast games should have taken note, even shenmue. It seems the focus no matter how low poly the character is they always made sure they had a detailed face and all ten fingers and that proportions were somewhat realistic.

    Brings me to my next point, I see that laura actually has two cutscene models one really high(which is the one we usually see in cutscenes and exploration) then a lower one(not sure where this one is used). Then finally we have the game play model who is 2,000 tris but still looks almost as detailed as the highest model. The stages are also very detailed and well modeled.

    Laura Cutscene model 1 - 3,843 tris
    d2_laurahi1.jpg

    Laura cutscene model 2 - 2,872 tris
    d2_laurahi2.jpg

    Laura gameplay model - 2,061 tris
    d2_lauragame.jpg

    Laura first person model - 2,282 tris
    d2_laurafps.jpg

    Boss 2 : grandpa - 2,456 tris
    d2_grandpa.jpg

    boss 3 : terrorist - 2,434 tris
    d2_terrorist.jpg

    enemy1 - 902 tris
    d2_enemy1.jpg

    Cabin - 7,066 tris
    d2_cabin.jpg

    mineshaft? - 12,730 tris
    d2_mine.jpg

    unknown room - 7,998 tris
    d2_unknown.jpg
     
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  14. Cloofoofoo

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    Next game is Segas Super Speed Racing / Cart - flag to flag, developed by Zoom inc. Surprisingly this game is ultra low poly. I would say maybe like a high end n64 game. The player and the cpu cars have similar high lod around 600 triangles. The cpu cars then have a middle lod thats not even worth showing because it isnt too different from the high lod but the lowest lod is downright ridiculous.Its around 35 triangles. The tracks I wasnt able to extract properly as they comeout in small chunks but to be honest the chunks are so low poly id be willing to bet it isn't past a couple thousand triangles. No idea why this game runs 30 fps on the dreamcast.

    The interesting part is that while going through the model files I found a car model thats close to 20,000 polygons. Beautifully modeled which extreme details. Thing is no idea where this model is used. It isnt used in replays or car selection screen or the music demo mode. No clue where this model is applied.

    Cart Flag to flag - 1999 - Dreamcast - zoom inc

    Super high poly cart - 18,363 triangles
    cartf2fsuperhighpolycar.jpg
    cartf2fsuperhighpolycar2.jpg

    Player cart/ cpu high lod - 684 triangles
    cartf2fplayercar.jpg

    CPU lowest lod - 35 triangles
    cartf2fcpulowpolycar.jpg
     
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  15. Cloofoofoo

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    Adding to my last post I finally understand where the high poly car model was used. It was used in the game credits after winning a championship, where there is nothing but the high poly car model on screen. After watching the credits I realized the car is even higher polygon count than that. A separate car body duplicate was used but I didnt understand what for, turns out on top of the 18,000 triangles another 5,000 polygons what used solely to layer a translucent environment map on it.

    High polygon model environment map layer - 5,326 triangles( if you add the base cars 18,363 triangle = 23,689 triangles in total)
    Cartf2fgloss.jpg
     
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