"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[Shifty Geezer]

You're not making any sense to me . Colour mashing on the faces is a texturing thing, not a polygon density thing. You could have low resolution normal maps creating 'fuzzy' detail on characters, but that would be independent of polygon counts; you could have that on a 5k triangle model or a 50k triangle model.

 

[jandlecack]

Yes, but I'm arguing there's no point in having such high poly models if they don't look great. There's more to it. What's the point of so many polygons for Drake when he looks like mud?

 

[Neb]

Yes, well, those are gameplay screens with the gameplay model. The cutscene model for Snake is at leats twice as complex in geometry, lighting and mapping.

i don't think so, look at the hands, look at the shape of the face, it's not only the improvements in mapping and lighting but in the actual raw geometry. Not to mention the scheletal superiority of the model in the cutscenes which allows complex facial animations, body movement and interaction.

Mapping/textures looks the same its just that its more pronounced in that position revealing the wrinkles done by the normal mapping. The lighting is very hard to jidge becouse its an offscreen photo.
Geometry detail is also hard becouse the photo is to small to see the edges. Though I find it interesting you can see twice the amount of polygons of an estimated 10-20k number presented by La-yosh (for ingame model?).
Though in cutscenes the model might have more geometry its to be expected in a cutscene where the camera angle is fixed and they can cull out what is not seen.

 

[Neb]

@Nebula: Those shots, look ridiculous. Honestly. What's with the grainy, dithered picture? That doesn't do the graphics justice in the slightest.

Its to showcase the hard edges, nothing else. I find it strange you focus on everything else in that picture except the edges which was the point of that image compilation.

 

[Neb]

Yes, but I'm arguing there's no point in having such high poly models if they don't look great. There's more to it. What's the point of so many polygons for Drake when he looks like mud?

The face for more detailed and smoother looking face expressials without looking strange. Also the "mud" may be more of an art style thing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, but I'm arguing there's no point in having such high poly models if they don't look great. There's more to it. What's the point of so many polygons for Drake when he looks like mud?

Okay, but that's too subjective a discussion for this thread. This thread is entirely about how many polygons games are using, not whether they look good or not.

 

[el_rika]

Though I find it interesting you can see twice the amount of polygons of an estimated 10-20k number presented by La-yosh (for ingame model?).

Hold on man, i'm just assuming at this point and i don't really want to sound like i'm set on contradicting you guys or beeing agressive for whatever reason, not at all.
It's just my personal and to be honest uneducated opinion on the matter You must likely know your stuff better than i do, i'm just going with the current here.

Having played the game like 3 times and going for the 5th, i can at least state as a fact that the in-gameplay model(s) is visibly inferior to the cutscene one(s). By how much, i have no ideea, that's what you guys are here for

 

[jandlecack]

Its to showcase the hard edges, nothing else. I find it strange you focus on everything else in that picture except the edges which was the point of that image compilation.

I merely commented on it and I had hoped you'd realize that with such low quality pictures you won't convince anyone. You do know that high compression screws up an image so bad that especially the edges become horrible to look at?

Undoctored shot (compare to the shot from the back in your collection)

Much different from yours, yes?

I find it strange you focus on providing crappy pictures of the game instead of capping it from source yourself.

 

[Neb]

I merely commented on it and I had hoped you'd realize that with such low quality pictures you won't convince anyone. You do know that high compression screws up an image so bad that especially the edges become horrible to look at?

Undoctored shot

Much different from yours, yes?

I find it strange you focus on providing crappy pictures of the game instead of capping it from source yourself.

Again that image was only to show the edges, not textures, nor lighting. I just took some screenshots from a MGS4 screenshot thread at GAF and put them together. Obviously it has to be screenshots showing characters close to the camera to see the edges. Better with screenshots taken from different angles.

 

[jandlecack]

Yes, I get that. But do me a favour. Zoom in on the pic I posted and tell me there isn't less aliasing and less hard edges. The shot you posted is simply not factual. I have no idea from what source it is but it's got to be a downplayed one.

 

[Neb]

Yes, I get that. But do me a favour. Zoom in on the pic I posted and tell me there isn't less aliasing and less hard edges. The shot you posted is simply not factual. I have no idea from what source it is but it's got to be a downplayed one.

I found them here, look them up for yourself it was 13 pages and one time through it is enough for me!

And those are suposed to be taken with the ingame screenshot tool in MGS4. And again the bit more bluriness to keep the image small and everything else is irreleveant as the edges was the focus and they are clearly visible as they also are in your image if you zoom in a bit. And aliasing has nothing to do with the topic nor conversation at all.

 

[MJP]

Yes, I get that. But do me a favour. Zoom in on the pic I posted and tell me there isn't less aliasing and less hard edges. The shot you posted is simply not factual. I have no idea from what source it is but it's got to be a downplayed one.

The shot you posted is a bullshot, it has almost no aliasing whatsoever.

However it still shows plenty of the hard geometry edges Nebula was attempting to demonstrate.

 

[jandlecack]

http://i37.tinypic.com/2mhyl2v.jpg

Taken by myself. Look at the straps on his back and point out hard edges please. Compare to bottom left of http://i37.tinypic.com/2eowrc3.jpg

If you are talking about the suit itself, that's the artistic direction, not an example of low poly.

 

[Neb]

Shoulder, elbow has hard edges, and nobody said low-poly, 10-20k for a model is not low-poly this generation. You should try to take screenshot where the model takes up half the screen or more and in different angles. The image I posted shows the same model as in your image but at closer range and different angles, after all they are from the same game and version!

 

[jandlecack]

Fair enough. I'll get back to that when I fire up the game next time. Keep in mind that the native shots should be 1024x576 and you mustn't up or downscale them, as I mentioned, it makes the whole thing look unjust. When you see dithering like that in the pictures from your compilation it's a good indication that they aren't kosher. To be frank most of the shots in the compilation look like they were zoomed in on post-mortem, explaining the low quality.

Actually I'll just go ahead and get some native close ups right away, give me a few minutes.

 

[Neb]

Fair enough. I'll get back to that when I fire up the game next time. Keep in mind that the native shots should be 1024x576 and you mustn't up or downscale them, as I mentioned, it makes the whole thing look unjust. When you see dithering like that in the pictures from your compilation it's a good indication that they aren't kosher.

I think the problem here is you are misstaken mapping on textures for geometry. Its what its supposed to simulate but its not actual geometry.

Here is a image showing a random character in wireframe, showing edges clearly. had it had textures with mapping it would have looked far more detailed geometry wise without being it for the random eye.

Image

This image shows how mapping does wonders but in certain angles the illusion is "broken".

Image

This one is interesting to, same face model but the right one is normal mapped.

Image

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I merely commented on it and I had hoped you'd realize that with such low quality pictures you won't convince anyone. You do know that high compression screws up an image so bad that especially the edges become horrible to look at?

We're not looking at edge quality. We're looking at vertices, straight edges on what should be curved silhouettes. Picture quality doesn't matter as long as these details are suitably clear. A square will still have four discernible corners whether it's pixel perfect or upscaled by 16x (x4 in both directions).

I don't want to sound rude, but your contributions to this thread aren't very useful, given the high technological standards we have here. If you don't understand the difference between counting polygons and talking image quality, you don't really have anything to contribute, and you'd do better to listen or ask questions and learn so in future you will be able to contribute.

 

[jandlecack]

I've taken a batch of pics and the sneaking suit indeed is very edgy, in particular the legs and arms. That can't be overlooked. See here: http://i34.tinypic.com/1196qmh.jpg

The shoulders are very disappointing, memory fooled me and I thought they were a lot better. In any case, since you mentioned straight edges on what should be curved silhouettes, are we certain these parts aren't artistically meant to be like that? Of course, a perfectly curved transition from shoulder to arm means a very high poly count, but in this case, maybe it's exactly what they wanted to achieve (the sneaking suit being very strong and durable, not adjusting to the body).

@"given the high technological standards we have here": Well, I write w32 apps for a living, so excuse me if I'm not all too familiar with 3d modelling. It's just something I have an interest in.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The shoulders are very disappointing, memory fooled me and I thought they were a lot better. In any case, since you mentioned straight edges on what should be curved silhouettes, are we certain these parts aren't artistically meant to be like that? Of course, a perfectly curved transition from shoulder to arm means a very high poly count, but in this case, maybe it's exactly what they wanted to achieve (the sneaking suit being very strong and durable, not adjusting to the body).

The normal mapping shows the intention is for the armour aspects to be smoothly curved, and the rest of the suit is clearly meant to be skin-tight. You can extend the observation to Snake's ears, which clearly have harsh corners where there shouldn't be.

@"given the high technological standards we have here": Well, I write w32 apps for a living, so excuse me if I'm not all too familiar with 3d modelling. It's just something I have an interest in.

Sure, and you're welcome. Just so long as you understand exactly what we're looking at in this thread!

Edit : Also, artistic choice isn't really the subject. Whether the developers wanted Snake to have pointy ears or not, the purpose of the thread is to list what models across what games have what polygon counts. Discussion as to whether those choices look good or not belongs more in the game's individual discussion threads. The discussion of MGS4 here is regards to how many polygons Snake is made out of (or anything else in the game).

 

[jandlecack]

Good analysis. Is it safe to assume the model of Snake used during cutscenes is an entirely different, higher spec one then? Although that one still has rough edges on the ears, there still is a noticeable difference. I don't think you can manipulate the camera angles and apply post-processing to that extent, am I right?