Yes, changes in visible triangle implies a higher quality model for the purpose. It's not uncommon for in-game cut-scenes to use a higher quality model, certainly back to last gen if not before.
"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers
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jandlecack
Banned
I see. Another interesting part about this higher spec cutscene stuff is that you can use the little robot (Mk. II / III) to drive around in the area and look at models yourself, specifically the one pictured in the cutscene screenshot. The models in that perspective do look better so I'm thinking they couldn't pull that kind of quality off during actual gameplay with more than 4 characters on screen.
Speaking of which, in the final fist fight with Liquid/Ocelot, you are, towards the end of it, playing one of those higher spec cutscenes. It clearly looks much more detailed and highpoly than the fighting gameplay before that.
However, you are able and have to interact with the cutscene by pressing a button to punch Ocelot. Thus, it is "in-game", using higher spec models, and you have a certain type of gameplay to it, which proves our theory of the regular gameplay using lower end models.
Speaking of which, in the final fist fight with Liquid/Ocelot, you are, towards the end of it, playing one of those higher spec cutscenes. It clearly looks much more detailed and highpoly than the fighting gameplay before that.
However, you are able and have to interact with the cutscene by pressing a button to punch Ocelot. Thus, it is "in-game", using higher spec models, and you have a certain type of gameplay to it, which proves our theory of the regular gameplay using lower end models.
Precisely. The hardware (and the graphics engine written for it) can handle a maximum amount of triangles at a given framerate. Let's say 1 million a frame for the sake of illustration. If you have 20 buildings and 10 badguys to render, that million polys has to be shared amongst them, and also other effects like shadow volumes where the triangles are used in invisible ways. If you then move indoors for a cutscene and have only one room to draw with four people, that same million polygons can be used more densely in the characters and scenery.
jandlecack
Banned
Mmmh, that was what I was thinking. Now I'm really curious to find out about Killzone 2's poly count though, as they have both in-game cutscenes, plenty enemies/stuff on screen and fairly detailed models.
Too bad nobody has a build to grab it from the source, as of now everything can be a bullshot and the video footage cannot be capped straight through.
Could we assume that this picture is not manipulated, what would be an educated guess on polys for the character model to the left?
I see some very hard edges around his knee as well as forearm, but the helmet looks smoother.
Too bad nobody has a build to grab it from the source, as of now everything can be a bullshot and the video footage cannot be capped straight through.
Could we assume that this picture is not manipulated, what would be an educated guess on polys for the character model to the left?
I see some very hard edges around his knee as well as forearm, but the helmet looks smoother.
This is a good reference pic :
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_image.html?G=9001&N=11
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_image.html?G=9001&N=11
jandlecack
Banned
Yea I thought so. They have really really straight edges all around them, specifically the arms. I don't know if it's the artistic style they're pursuing but it looks quite lowfi.
The head & around it on the other hand looks quite impressive.
Edit: And looking at the kneepad; wow. That thing has got like 8 visible corners in total. Half Life 1 days
I'd guess in the wild around 8000 polys per enemy.
The head & around it on the other hand looks quite impressive.
Edit: And looking at the kneepad; wow. That thing has got like 8 visible corners in total. Half Life 1 days
I'd guess in the wild around 8000 polys per enemy.
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The funniest part about all this debate is that I've actually praised MGS4 for having 1. more detail in its models then Gears as an example and 2. putting detail even into less obvious places.
Yet all everyone got hung up on was that 10-20K sounds lower than that magic "60K for the hair only" silliness... some people here are kinda strange. And why exaclty do those numbers matter anyway?
Yet all everyone got hung up on was that 10-20K sounds lower than that magic "60K for the hair only" silliness... some people here are kinda strange. And why exaclty do those numbers matter anyway?
DeadlyNinja
Veteran
E-Penis no doubt.
If the number is small, then that's bad! It's pretty funny. Here I am, still in awe that Alyx is only 8,000 polygons or so.
I know what I'm looking at Neb. But Nariko was covered in polygon edges in HS and she was around 10-15,000. Snake (especially towards the end of the game) is one of the most impressive character models in gaming, and I'd expect him to have quite a lot of polygons to achieve the affect. If not, then all power to incredible techniques and art.
I'm not looking for 60,000. I'm saying that the standard for an impressive character this gen is around 20-30,000, and the standard for an average model is 10-15,000. I don't believe Kojima Productions is talented enough to get such an impressive character model with only 10-15,000 polygons.
But Laa-Yosh said 10-20k polygons for Snake, suppose then it is 20k. Now you say 'impressive' is 20-30k, then it might be impressive perhaps?
Being that thereis a scaling effect for the total number of polygons per scene, leading to the character model getting more or less polys depending on type of scene, what are you folks tagging the 10-20k (or whatever the hell it is) to? Is it the camera-centered Snake? I'm just curious.
So MGS4 employs some sort of progressive mesh system?
LOD. Every sane game has it these days. You don't want to render 5000 triangles for a character who's a dozen pixels high viewed from miles away!
To answer NERO's question, the polygon count is for the model as loaded and stored in RAM for the gameplay. The polygon counts of what's actually being rendered will of course vary with how the engine handles the geometry. In essence it's peak geometry. I suppose in theory we could see more geometry on screen than the models with some fancy geometry creation, but that hasn't proven the case with any games yet that are still handling triangle meshes in the same traditional way.
To answer NERO's question, the polygon count is for the model as loaded and stored in RAM for the gameplay. The polygon counts of what's actually being rendered will of course vary with how the engine handles the geometry. In essence it's peak geometry. I suppose in theory we could see more geometry on screen than the models with some fancy geometry creation, but that hasn't proven the case with any games yet that are still handling triangle meshes in the same traditional way.
Continuos change of detail isn't always the case, discreet LOD models are still pretty common and probably will be. They take less CPU resources and coder time for the implementation / money for the middleware; but more artist hours - relatively basic tradeoff.
That is the second question of mine you've answered today Shifty Geezer and I greatly appreciate it. I come to this site to learn what I can as well as ocassionally philosophize about the inanities of gaming culture.
Cheers
Nice find!
But there's no need to spam the thread with 12 posts. Postings by new members need mod approval. So for future reference, post once and wait for a mod to approve it.