"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[deepbrown]

First bit we kind of know, but hair is interesting. Rich Diamant to Ripten:

All of the main characters are in the 25k to 30k range. The pirates and other secondary characters max out at around 15k.

The number of texture maps is a hard question to answer. It really differs per character. They have so many maps it’s really hard to count. The head alone has I think either 6 or 7 maps. Then you have the arms, clothes, hair, eyes, teeth and tongue. Each with at least 2 to 3 maps. We didn’t really care about the number of maps as apposed to the texture memory each character was able to hold.

The number was about 10-15 megs per main character. With texture compression, that’s a lot of maps! The pirates and other secondary characters had a limit of 4 to 5 megs total. Also a fair amount of textures for secondary characters.

Hair is not an easy thing to do in 3d, at least not easy to make look good. We wanted to create hair that looked and felt full. Again, not an easy thing to do in games since we are always limited by the amount of polygons we can use. This was another area that we decided not to hold back on. The hair alone got into the thousands of polygons. I think Drake’s hair is about 2500 or so.

http://www.ripten.com/2008/01/17/ri...iew-part-1-background-and-character-creation/

 

[Rick Stirling]

Cheers for adding to my initial list folks. I've taking the liberty of stealing some of those numbers and putting them back into the original article.

I didn't take all of them, because I don't want to swap the original article with numbers - there is no point in the articles being an encyclopaedia, a forum like this serves as a much better home for an exhaustive list.

What I do like about it is being able to track the progression in a games series over time through various hardware incarnations - hence a few Quake games, a few Project Gotham games etc. When we get IV out the door I'll show how it compares to San Andreas.

What I feel my original post is missing is prop and weapon facts and figures, and also textures resolutions. If any of you kind folks could help out on that front, it'd be great.

I've ran out of beer.

 

[keptcopsup]

According to a post over on nvnews, the polycount of the nanosuit model in Crysis is less than what's posted here.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1581627&postcount=18

 

[AlNom]

According to a post over on nvnews, the polycount of the nanosuit model in Crysis is less than what's posted here.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1581627&postcount=18

Maybe one of the lower LODs ?

 

[Neb]

It is around 10k polygons for the mp nanosuit at low level geometry settings. At high it is 15k polygons. The difference is small assets tied to the main mesh that is a part of the body/character design, ammo packs, radio, small detail on the outside that makes up the suit.

Ingame it is roughly ~2x the amount of polygons becouse of different effect layers add up.

Then there are different Nanosuit models, ranging from 15k (high or better) to ~28k (cut-scene/ingame special story character) IIRC.

I stripped some stuff down to only get the model and checked the what is rendered to Phil. Also dont forget that when you lower your settings you lower the LOD for the character mesh and/or amount of detail on it. It would be interesting to see how other counts their polygon counts. Where do you draw the line, pure polygon count for body or for body + effects for that body.

For example a nanosuit model 'Sykes', 25395 polygons.
15139 + 5176 polygons for body, 18 items
3482 polygons for humanskin, 2 items
680 polygons for eyes, 2 items for example and some more to.

nanosuit "Nomad" (player body) without head 17017 polygons.
6740 + 3298 + 3412 +3513 polygons for body, 8 items (no head included).



nanosuit "naked" for multiplayer in high settings, 16017 polygons.
9218 + 6352 + * polygons for body, 10 items. <--------Compare to low settings number

Nanosuit "naked" for multiplayer in low settings, 10186 polygons.
6352 + 3379 + * polygons for body, 5 items. <-------Compare number of items to high setting

*I excluded some additional polygons for small stuff (eyes etc).

Check out the difference in number of objects and how it affects overall amount of polygons!

[/QUOTE]

 

[Megadrive1988]

I wonder if next-gen systems (3rd-gen Xbox, PS4) will be capable of doing "high resolution" models that have millions of polygons. No amount of pixel shaders or special mapping techniques can truly make up for low-poly models.

It will require GPUs capable of billions of polys/sec if we are to get models with millions of polys

 

[archangelmorph]

I wonder if next-gen systems (3rd-gen Xbox, PS4) will be capable of doing "high resolution" models that have millions of polygons. No amount of pixel shaders or special mapping techniques can truly make up for low-poly models.

It will require GPUs capable of billions of polys/sec if we are to get models with millions of polys

Why do we need models with millions of polys?

Once you reach the point where the number of polys viewable in the scene far exceed the number of renderable pixels by a large factor then you'll realise that your rendering solution is extremely inefficient..

 

[AlNom]

It will require GPUs capable of billions of polys/sec if we are to get models with millions of polys

Without the use of a hardware tessellator, just take a step back and think of the memory and bandwidth requirements for what you're asking (besides what archangel has mentioned).

 

[one]

Per-frame triangles in Crysis: ~2 millions

 

[Neb]

Yep about 2 million polygons per frame at high, v.high I would say is about 2.5+ million. Drawcalls are a fairly bit higher in mp and in high/v.high it is above 2k. Although I haven't tested the game after the 1.2 patch so who knows, there might be some optimisations in there? :smile:

Some ss with DIP's and polygon count per frame at medium+. ~1400-3800 dip's, ~500-1400k polys.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1117428&postcount=242

Now it would be interesting to know how many polygons are created by the procedural system ~avg (breaking objects and vegetation).

 

[one]

Yep about 2 million polygons per frame at high, v.high I would say is about 2.5+ million.

The accompanying article says "2M at the full graphics options", I assume it's the best option available. Is there any other report available from this session?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080310/3dcry.htm

 

[Neb]

The accompanying article says "2M at the full graphics options", I assume it's the best option available. Is there any other report available from this session?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080310/3dcry.htm

Well depends on the testing session, e.i does it include indoor and outdoor scenes, if so then 2k sounds reasonable. If only outdoors then no at v.high (I get about 2.6m+ and tweaked LOD 3.2m+). Indoor it cant be since that would be more like ~1 million per frame.

Medium, high, very high settings have large (or rather massive) difference in LOD levels for geometry/assets.

The engine in istelf can do a whole lot though, I have tested disabling terrain LOD and that took the polygon count up to 12-16 million per frame. BUT not that playable at 12fps. I actuallythought it would crash seeing how BF2 engine "died" at 1m, FC "died" at 3m, and Arma at 3m!

 

[groper]

The accompanying article says "2M at the full graphics options", I assume it's the best option available. Is there any other report available from this session?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20080310/3dcry.htm

PC games traditionally suffer from $hity polycounts and the reason is extremelly Lower common denominator in comparisson with the higher-end cards.
For instance, when Crysis is designed/developed with Geforce 6800gt/ Radeon 9800pro as LCD, this is what you get.

 

[Neb]

PC games traditionally suffer from $hity polycounts and the reason is extremelly Lower common denominator in comparisson with the higher-end cards.
For instance, when Crysis is designed/developed with Geforce 6800gt/ Radeon 9800pro as LCD, this is what you get.

It's not really easy to compare (not many released numbers and you wonder why! ), for example KZ2 has a bit more than 1m according to the devs. And the games with polycounts of ~3m according to devs like Lost Planet is out for PS3 and PC. And the PC version has better graphics. Then there is this zombie game with 3m to but it is only for xbox360 (or?).

Also that's why there are LOD settings for PC games to accomodate. And then there is the question of how many redraws of the frame, effects etc. say you have to redraw a scene 2 times in a game with 3m polygons and another one needs 6 redraws with 2m to achieve desired graphics.... well one of them is doing more and needs to cut down on things. :smile:

As for last-gen PC games where up there with the console games in terms of polygons and surpassing to.FC with 250-500k+ polygons, OP:R with 200k-1000k, etc etc.

 

[groper]

It's not really easy to compare (not many released numbers and you wonder why! ), for example KZ2 has a bit more than 1m according to the devs. And the games with polycounts of ~3m according to devs like Lost Planet is out for PS3 and PC. And the PC version has better graphics. Then there is this zombie game with 3m to but it is only for xbox360 (or?).

I don't know for Lost Planet but the pc version of Splinter-cell: DA has evidently less polygons than the 360 version.
Also in PS3 you can use culling or however they call it
For other games: Dead Rising is 4m polys, Kameo fluctuates between 2-4m polys etc.

 

[Neb]

I don't know for Lost Planet but the pc version of Splinter-cell: DA has evidently less polygons than the 360 version.

A bad port (and a single game example!!) that never got fixed either is a bad example to say PC games have bad polygon count. And then I've yet to see any numbers regarding either version so that leaves it to speculations and what some would claim a small diference on the main character suit.

Also in PS3 you can use culling or however they call it

You also have that for PC! And you know why that is used right? To avoid perfomance problem by increased polygon count, it is to not render non visible geometry == Perfomance increase + perhaps saved memory space!

For other games: Dead Rising is 4m polys, Kameo fluctuates between 2-4m polys etc

Dead rising I have heared yes something about 4m polys or was it vertices and Kameo I 've never heared of, link or is it speculation? :smile:

EDIT: BTW it is a difference between average and max/low polygon count. Note that Crysis is 2-2.5m polygons on average, tops can get to 3m+ or if tweaked LOD then easily 4m+!

EDIT2: I am interested to see what framerate some one with a 8800GTX and a fast Quad-core gets with 12-16m polygons per frame. To disable LOD enter in the console the following, e_lods=0 , e_terrain_lod_ratio=0 . First island level part is good.

 

[groper]

A bad port (and a single game example!!) that never got fixed either is a bad example to say PC games have bad polygon count. And then I've yet to see any numbers regarding either version so that leaves it to speculations and what some would claim a small diference on the main character suit.

I don't think that is a unique example. I bet that they are doing the same for many games with vertex-heavy scenes, when they are porting to dx9 GPUs.
Its just that in SC: DA they did it with the characters too in a way that it was more obvious.
You don't need an example to understand that pc games have generally $hity polycounts. If you play games the last 8 years you should know it.
But if you insist, the fact that a game like crysis renders 2-2.5 m polys per scene is the best example. :smile:

Dead rising I have heared yes something about 4m polys or was it vertices and Kameo I 've never heared of, link or is it speculation? :smile:

I don't have a link because i saw it in a video with a presentation of the game from a dev to a IGN(?) editor. It was a few weeks after E3 2005 this is why i dont recall if it was an IGN editor or someone else. But i still remember the numbers because they were impressive for 2005.
In any case if you know the game you don't need a link to believe it. :smile:

EDIT: BTW it is a difference between average and max/low polygon count. Note that Crysis is 2-2.5m polygons on average, tops can get to 3m+ or if tweaked LOD then easily 4m+!

Still this is pretty disappointing when we are talking for a PC next gen game.

 

[Neb]

I don't think that is a unique example. I bet that they are doing the same for many games with vertex-heavy scenes, when they are porting to dx9 GPUs.
Its just that in SC: DA they did it with the characters too in a way that it was more obvious.
You don't need an example to understand that pc games have generally $hity polycounts.

But it doesn't and youre only example doesn't even have numbers only speculation!

I'll add Oblivion, it renders more geometry on the PC version, in such things at longer draw distance, more grass etc. Then there is Lost Planet also.

If you play games the last 8 years you should know it.

And becouse I can enable perfomance counters showing me actual polygons rendered in games, how many console games have that ability and how many devs have released their polygon numbers?

But if you insist, the fact that a game like crysis renders 2-2.5 m polys per scene is the best example.

Umm you are aware that it is average polygon count right? And you are aware it is per frame not scene? And for example Lost Planet and Dead Rising 3/4m poly numbers are peak. That means the max amount shown in a frame(s) and not average. Average will be lower!

I don't have a link because i saw it in a video with a presentation of the game from a dev to a IGN(?) editor. It was a few weeks after E3 2005 this is why i dont recall if it was an IGN editor or someone else. But i still remember the numbers because they were impressive for 2005.
In any case if you know the game you don't need a link to believe it. :smile:

Thats not enough there is LOD, DOF to hide the lesser detail at distance, etc. Becouse a character has 5000 polys near the FOV doesn't mean it has 5000 polys at distance, LOD. If no LOD where used for games then Crysis would be 10-20m!

Still this is pretty desappointing when we are talking for a PC next gen game

As above you need to understand the difference between average and peak. :smile:



http://www.gamersyde.com/news_2044_en.html

Question: How many polygons maximum are you using at any one time in the game?

Well to give you an example, if we take the Enchanted Kingdom as a level you are looking close to a million polygons on that one background. If you obviously then take the battlefield that’s getting close to double that amount. So depending on what kind of level it is depends on the amount of polygons there. But it’s getting to a stage now where the polygon count is almost irrelevant because of the visual fidelity, the HD effect as well. Polygons were this thing that everyone spoke about when we had few of them. But now I think the polygon count isn’t such a big thing these days.

Peak ~2 million polys per frame for Kameo?

We know the peak is 3m polygons for Lost Planet but what would be the average? Found a slider showing their LOD system for characters to begin. The background is around 600k without LOD.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20070926/lp16.jpg

 

[groper]

Umm you are aware that it is average polygon count right?

Ok let me rephrase it then: an average of 2-2.5 m polys for a next gen pc game is a crapy polycount. The game in terms of polycount is not next-gen at all. In everything esle it is.

And you are aware it is per frame not scene?

Of course i am.

And for example Lost Planet and Dead Rising 3/4m poly numbers are peak. That means the max amount shown in a frame(s) and not average. Average will be lower!

That means that when you are in a big part of the mall and everything is crowded with hundreds of zombies and the engine needs to fire 4m polys per frame it will do it, some times for 30 frames per second other times for 40 times per second and few times lower that 30 times per frame (at least from what i saw from the demo). That is what the specific hardware can give me and i am satisfied with this because i get the max.
But if i was able to play this game with a G200x2 or a R800x2 just to find out that i can run it at 1600x1200 at an unnecessary 140 fps average , but with the same crappy npc-polycounts , it would be overly embarrassing.

This is the case with PC gaming. We entered in a DX10 era and from now on the polycounts and the entire geometry of the levels/models will be restricted/dictated by the lower DX10 GPUs in the best case or by the highest DX9 in the worst.
Another example is Mafia 2: Next Gen graphics (lighting-textures etc) but crappy polycount. Especially when someone is thinking that he may be playing this game at summer 2009 with an R800x2 but he will not be able to turn up the geometry for the NPCs so that they will look better than that:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_2044_en.html

Congrats for the find but you are not goin to win anything.
I failed to find and download the video -the one i was referring in my previous post- about 1 year before so we have to go with your crappy link now.

 

[AlNom]

Well, I suppose if they didn't have a city to render, they could focus on character modeling just for you. But wait...That'd be like Fight Night Round 3.