Xenos - RSX - What was left out?

[Titanio]

Anyway, that is the reason why we came here.

But it will take a long time till we know the answer ...

If at least we knew the answer for AI and physics... (just kiding)

I think we'll have a much much better idea by the end of the year. Much of the reason for current uncertainty is because so many devs are staying so quiet. We've had some comments about the CPUs individually from devs, and you might start to draw information from them, and I'm sure as the year moves on, more devs will start talking about their games and what they're doing with the hardware. And of course, we've had the anonymously sourced info from a number of articles. I think there is an OK amount of info out there from which one could start developing a hunch, at least (and I know I have my own hunches and opinions as I'm sure everyone here does). Certainly we've got a good idea of many of the "obvious" things Cell should excel at, but we're missing detail - like crucially how much of an advantage it has in its strong areas, among other things.

Something tells me, for example, we might hear a lot more about how PS3 can be used when Factor5 get around to unveiling their games They were good for stoking technical debate back before this current gen and weren't shy of controversy - even if they were playing favourites, you can't really argue with their results - and I hope they'll weigh in again this time. There are other devs, of course too, the likes of Epic etc. who have already provided some insight - though in such cases you may have to read between the lines as they try to remain as diplomatic as possible.

 

[Tap In]

...
I think we'll have a much much better idea by the end of the year. Much of the reason for current uncertainty is because so many devs are staying so quiet.

not to mention that many people didn't even have X360 beta kits until a month ago and the RSX isn't even done yet is it?

I'd give all of these comparisons 6 months to shake out.

I DO think that many will be pleasantly surprised by the level of quality in vids that we will be seeing closer to November. (compared to these OLD screens and crap from before E3)

i really think that the lid is being kept ON in order to under-promise, over-deliver.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah I think people get to tied up into these early screenshots and builds to MS had at E3. The games will look next-gen when they are finished, there will be no doubt about that. I preparing to be amazed. To think Ninja Theory has HS looking great without even programming for the RSX yet.

The RSX is a big part of the PS3. And Epic has GoW looking great without using beta kits. I think next-gen games will bring us so close to the movie counterparts that almost every action movie and T.V. show will try to have a videogame in the future.

Today we have shows like The X-Files and 24, but in the future expect at least twice as many TV show videogames. Remember Alfred M. from Spiderman 2 tech demo on the PS3? They were talking about story telling going to the next level due to realistic graphics.

Well Hollywood isn't going to miss out on this cash cow. We haven't seen nothing yet.

 

[j^aws]

I'm no programmer but if I understand correctly, I'd like the idea for reducing bandwidth use that otherwise would be needed for moving textures. Is that right?

Pretty much so, it takes some burden off external busses. Procedurally generated textures and geometry will help do that...

Kind of why I always liked the PowerVR and the Dreamcast (tile rendering) as anything that reduces the need for brute force is good in my book.

I still like my Dreamcast and I still like PowerVR for it's approach. Anything that reduces the need for brute force is good but so is more brute force! There's no substitute for brute force in the end. It's always a balance. There's no doubt X360 is an elegant design and it also has brute force. The PS3 has plenty of brute force (raw power) but It also has elegance, though some may not see that at first glance if they don't understand the architecture! And we've yet to hear RSX-CELL details...

In one of the MS interviews a rep was talking about procedural synthesis as though it was going to be more widely used in the next gen. It will be interesting to see how it's used. If all of these BW saving techniques are employed, we could see some amazing achievements in games toward the last couple of years in these systems.

I have no doubt more procedural stuff will be used next gen on 'all' consoles. Computation is relatively cheap compared to bandwidth and so programming techniques will take advantage of that...

 

[dukmahsik]

it sure sounds like most everyone here is concluding for now that both consoles will be pretty much equal in terms of power and output. they just go about it in very different ways

 

[j^aws]

it sure sounds like most everyone here is concluding for now that both consoles will be pretty much equal in terms of power and output. they just go about it in very different ways

That's the diplomatic answer!

I'd say on paper, the PS3 definitely has the raw power advantage but it seems it will be harder to leverage that than the X360...

 

[Tap In]

That's the diplomatic answer!

I'd say on paper, the PS3 definitely has the raw power advantage but it seems it will be harder to leverage that than the X360...

Jaws, IYO, what role will tile based rendering play in this gen.

I see that Xenos uses some form of it to fit the frame buffer? (pardon my ignorance) into the Edram but is it going to be implemented similarly to how it was used in the Dreamcast?

IOW, will it be reducing the need for having all of the polygons rendered on screen by rendering only those visible to the eye and if so, does this reduce the number of shading operations for each scene as well?


Does PS3 use a similar process or is this one of the "elegant" features of Xenos in order to make up for its lack of brute force compared to PS3?

thx

 

[version]

cell 3 times faster in peak performance, and 5 times in real..

Don't post lies . That graph clearly pointed out a 4ghz 1x8 cell not a 3.2 ghz 1x7 cell. If you want to troll forums find another forum to post at [/i]

 

[Titanio]

it sure sounds like most everyone here is concluding for now that both consoles will be pretty much equal in terms of power and output. they just go about it in very different ways

I think it's easy to come to that conclusion given the debate that's currently ongoing regarding the two systems - where people can point at different areas of probably advantage on both consoles - but not necessarily correct. As I said earlier, it's rare that any system has an absolute and unequivocal advantage in every scenario for every task, but that doesn't mean one isn't more powerful "overall".

IOW, will it be reducing the need for having all of the polygons rendered on screen by rendering only those visible to the eye and if so, does this reduce the number of shading operations for each scene as well?

That's not something tied to tiling or eDram only, AFAIK. That's as much a software problem, I think - implementing appropriate culling. It's sometimes actually not efficient to spend time trying to cull away EVERYTHING that isn't viewable - it's a bit of a balancing act since you could spend more time doing that than actually rendering the extra hidden surfaces.

Perfect efficiency isn't always..efficient

cell 3 times faster in peak performance, and 5 times in real..

http://web.axelero.hu/varga1973/cvsx.JPG

That chart is at least out of date wrt the ps3 cell..

 

[pc999]

[
I think we'll have a much much better idea by the end of the year.

I really doubt of that, if you star a EE vs XCPU and will see why .

Also we really dont know (offcialy) almost anything form XCPU, e.g. we heard that their flops are "free", but that mean they can do the flpos + dot products + gp ?, they have especial HW for the audio will it do in paralel too?, what are those 128bit registers in the VMX units?...


Probably if they designed the CPU as well as the GPU we will see an even stranger match.

Something tells me, for example, we might hear a lot more about how PS3 can be used when Factor5 get around to unveiling their games They were good for stoking technical debate back before this current gen and weren't shy of controversy - even if they were playing favourites, you can't really argue with their results - and I hope they'll weigh in again this time. There are other devs, of course too, the likes of Epic etc. who have already provided some insight - though in such cases you may have to read between the lines as they try to remain as diplomatic as possible.

I think we shuld listen more for multiplatform games (or different games for both), an exclusive dev saing that the other is better is something...unique

 

[Farid]

Also we really dont know (offcialy) almost anything form XCPU

Everything has already been leaked. And when I say everything, I mean each and every .doc the Xenon Dev Kit came with.

And I guess most of the usual posters here, already got their hands on those docs.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

version wrote:
cell 3 times faster in peak performance, and 5 times in real.. Smile

http://web.axelero.hu/varga1973/cvsx.JPG


That chart is at least out of date wrt the ps3 cell..

So anyone willing to bring the chart up to date? For curiousity sake I'd like to see how those numbers cahnge in respect to the PS3 CELL config.

 

[pc999]

Also we really dont know (offcialy) almost anything form XCPU

Everything has already been leaked. And when I say everything, I mean each and every .doc the Xenon Dev Kit came with.

And I guess most of the usual posters here, already got their hands on those docs.

Can you please link me to those doc (not the patents because that can be used or not).

Thanks in advance.

 

[Farid]

Can you please link me to those doc (not the patents because that can be used or not).

Thanks in advance.

I don't know if you can find them on the web.
That is if there's even a site that offer them to download.

When I say the docs have been leaked, I mean that people (read Xe Developers) sent the docs to their friends, who in their turn sent them to others friends, etc...

 

[London Geezer]

Can you please link me to those doc (not the patents because that can be used or not).

Thanks in advance.

I don't know if you can find them on the web.
That is if there's even a site that offer them to download.

When I say the docs have been leaked, I mean that people (read Xe Developers) sent the docs to their friends, who in their turn sent them to others friends, etc...

Hey hey hey it's illegal stuff, cut it out with the names!!

 

[Farid]

Hey hey hey it's illegal stuff, cut it out with the names!!

I don't know what you're talking about...




Only one page of a book never tells the whole story.

Well, that depends of the... version... of this story.

 

[dukmahsik]

it sure sounds like most everyone here is concluding for now that both consoles will be pretty much equal in terms of power and output. they just go about it in very different ways

That's the diplomatic answer!

I'd say on paper, the PS3 definitely has the raw power advantage but it seems it will be harder to leverage that than the X360...

paper doesn't mean much, what matters most is final output to me.

 

[Titanio]

Also we really dont know (offcialy) almost anything form XCPU, e.g. we heard that their flops are "free", but that mean they can do the flpos + dot products + gp ?

Dot products are flops. Some have argued that "flops will be free" next-gen, but that's nothing to do with the hardware per se - just that the software won't be ever using all the flops it has to offer. Others would disagree completely.

they have especial HW for the audio will it do in paralel too?, what are those 128bit registers in the VMX units?...

Audio is on the CPU looking at interviews on the issue. It's not a BIG issue anyway. All VMX units have 128-bit registers, Xenon's cores simply have 128 of them compared to 32 normally.

I think we shuld listen more for multiplatform games (or different games for both), an exclusive dev saing that the other is better is something...unique

Of course, but their commentary can still be useful.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can you please link me to those doc (not the patents because that can be used or not).
Thanks in advance.

When I say the docs have been leaked, I mean that people (read Xe Developers) sent the docs to their friends, who in their turn sent them to others friends, etc...

I've seen an offical MS comparison of Xenon to Alpha kits with recommendations of what devs can expect in differences in where Xenon is stronger and weaker. Makes for interesting reading, but even though I ain't under NDA I don't think it fair to talk about it. Though I can't see much point in the NDAs. I guess the marketting departments don't want the truth of these machines to come out as that would undermine their 'unstoppable uber-computing' propaganda with 'powerful but with limits' realities.

 

[3roxor]

I've seen an offical MS comparison of Xenon to Alpha kits with recommendations of what devs can expect in differences in where Xenon is stronger and weaker. Makes for interesting reading, but even though I ain't under NDA I don't think it fair to talk about it. Though I can't see much point in the NDAs. I guess the marketting departments don't want the truth of these machines to come out as that would undermine their 'unstoppable uber-computing' propaganda with 'powerful but with limits' realities.

so you are saying it isn't "all that".. Also some futures of the alpha kit are better than the final product:? [/b]