Xenos - RSX - What was left out?

[Titanio]

I am still HIGHLY sceptical of the SPE's abilities for two reasons.

1. Depending on who you talk to, the SPE's can either be used for everything under the sun, or that they are too specialized and are infact not very useful for a good number of things.

Most people don't think they can be used for "everything under the sun", though. Most people think they can be used (at least, used "immediately") for a subset of tasks - and yes, vertex processing, which is what was relevant to this discussion, is one of them.

I have read speculations that the SPE's will be used for EVERYTHING, such as advanced physics, A.I., AA, processing vertex data, geometry tesselation, Ray tracing ect.

There's just too much hype/expectations based on not enough info. IMO.

The things you've listed are not "everything". You've seen a lot of speculation, and then some "harder" info, IMO. Things like ray tracing are a pet point of discussion here but not very plausible, IMO, but in terms of what developers are actually talking about, physics, vertex processing (geometry tesselation), sound, animation, particle systems etc. would seem to map well to them. But that is not EVERYTHING.

If you wish to view the GPUs in isolation, feel free, but don't think you're getting an accurate assessment of the systems' graphical capabilities by doing so (as far as either system goes, even if more particularly PS3). It'd perhaps be nice if it were that simple, but it's not. Everything must be placed in context, and no, I don't think you can discount the CPU, particularly on PS3. The thing about a CPU is - it is more general. Theoretically it can do anything you might want it to do (graphically). The question then becomes a) if it can do it fast enough and b) if it can do it without infringing on other design goals. Obviously in many cases the answer to a) will certainly be no, but in others (especially some on Cell), the answer will be yes, and then it'll be up to devs to determine if it's worth spending CPU time on or not (see: b))

 

[c0_re]

What I wonder is how can the "cell" deemed a catch all, when it only has one PPE? I mean won't the cell be pretty busy with high end physics, DD audio, geometry I\O and online?

I'll deffinetly be MORE interested in hearing what 3rd party devs have to say about Xenos and Cell as we move inot next year and they can say what they want without being penalized by Microshaft and Sony.

Some of the claims made by people about Cell and Xenos make me wonder how much of these things are REAL WORLD usable and not just wishfull thinking and hype.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the claims for Cell's potential performance have been substantiated in the main through both technical papers (ISSCC results, FFT example) and realtime demos (rubber duckies showed mesh based collisions, fluid dynamics, image recognition). I think there's lots of potential, especially closely integrated with the GPU. The only real unknowns are how devs will manage to work their code to use Cell's advantages. I think Cell can only cope with good code, and only moderately optimised code will severely cramp its style. I can imagine a lot of less-creative devs struggling to find ways to implement AI for example. But presumably the community will bolster itself and push for developments.

 

[blakjedi]

Good point Shifty. I'm especially interested in how the RSX will handle complex lighting. HDR and GI tricks are the holy grail to me of video games. I'm tired of the "everywhere, nowhere" lighting currently found in videogames... Doesnt the RSX have a special lighting unit or was the diagram I saw a fake?

Anyway... anyone have any conclusion about the "specific logic" on the Xenos that allows for an "extra 33%" of pixel shader computational ability?

I was wondering if this was extra beyond the shader abilities described to date or whether that extra is included in the numbers we have already estimated at this point?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the logic they talk of is the load balancing, meaning the shaders are run at better efficiency than fixed-function pipes. Where 33% of fixed pipes might be going idle, that's not the case with Xenos.

The idea is to convey to people that a unified shader architecture might have less shader pipelines (smaller number - marketting nightmare!) but it's equivalent to more.

 

[mckmas8808]

Good point Shifty. I'm especially interested in how the RSX will handle complex lighting. HDR and GI tricks are the holy grail to me of video games. I'm tired of the "everywhere, nowhere" lighting currently found in videogames.

I'm with you blak I'm tired of the lighting too. I like it for this gen because the hardware can't support better, but I'm ready for a change. I hope the HDR and GI tricks look great. I would like to hear more from 3rd party devs in the future too. I really wonder how much the CELL can add to the graphics for the PS3?

 

[Tap In]

Good point Shifty. I'm especially interested in how the RSX will handle complex lighting. HDR and GI tricks are the holy grail to me of video games. I'm tired of the "everywhere, nowhere" lighting currently found in videogames.

I'm with you blak I'm tired of the lighting too. I like it for this gen because the hardware can't support better, but I'm ready for a change. I hope the HDR and GI tricks look great. I would like to hear more from 3rd party devs in the future too. I really wonder how much the CELL can add to the graphics for the PS3?

of ALL the graphical upgrades reaped form this gen, the thing that intrigues me the MOST is the advances in lighting *drool*.

I have been starting every new game I ever owned, just hoping to see something that was never going to happen this gen. (realistic lighting)


I am not only hoping this gen, I'm damned well expecting it.

 

[dukmahsik]

which system will be able to do better lighting?

 

[London Geezer]

which system will be able to do better lighting?

Depends on the developer. Seeing how close the 2 platforms are, it will largely be dependent on the developer and the game.

 

[dukmahsik]

which system will be able to do better lighting?

Depends on the developer. Seeing how close the 2 platforms are, it will largely be dependent on the developer and the game.

yes i know, maybe I should rephrase my question, which system has the potential for the best lighting?

 

[London Geezer]

which system will be able to do better lighting?

Depends on the developer. Seeing how close the 2 platforms are, it will largely be dependent on the developer and the game.

yes i know, maybe I should rephrase my question, which system has the potential for the best lighting?

That's why i responded the way i did. What do you define "lighting"? Cause it's an aspect of graphics that's made up of so many different things it's hard to quantify. Shadowing? Surface lighting (bump maps and displacement mappping included)? Reflections? Ambient lighting? Global lighting? Sub surface scattering?

Too much to quantify.

 

[dukmahsik]

which system will be able to do better lighting?

Depends on the developer. Seeing how close the 2 platforms are, it will largely be dependent on the developer and the game.

yes i know, maybe I should rephrase my question, which system has the potential for the best lighting?

That's why i responded the way i did. What do you define "lighting"? Cause it's an aspect of graphics that's made up of so many different things it's hard to quantify. Shadowing? Surface lighting (bump maps and displacement mappping included)? Reflections? Ambient lighting? Global lighting? Sub surface scattering?

Too much to quantify.

sure ill try to, how about all of the above? for a system to be better it'll have to be able to do all of those better than the other system no? i appreciate your answers!

 

[London Geezer]

That's why i responded the way i did. What do you define "lighting"? Cause it's an aspect of graphics that's made up of so many different things it's hard to quantify. Shadowing? Surface lighting (bump maps and displacement mappping included)? Reflections? Ambient lighting? Global lighting? Sub surface scattering?

Too much to quantify.

sure ill try to, how about all of the above? for a system to be better it'll have to be able to do all of those better than the other system no? i appreciate your answers!

As i said, when you take all those things all at the same time, i'm pretty sure that the same game on the 2 consoles will look VERY similar. VERY VERY similar.

From what the devs say too, the 2 platforms are very close in power, though in paper PS3 seems to have the upper hand. Slightly. In the end one software house will use the same resolution textures and same models from one platform to the other so the games will look extremely similar.

Obviously there will also be exclusive games that make use of each platform the best way, and it will be up to the developer to use what they have in different ways to show different looking games.

As it stands, it looks like half the games will be based on the Unreal Engine 3, making everything looks samey.

We'll see...

 

[3roxor]

From what the devs say too, the 2 platforms are very close in power

link

As it stands, it looks like half the games will be based on the Unreal Engine 3, making everything looks samey.

Is that true ..I'll be surprised if we actually see more than 6/7 games using that engine..

 

[London Geezer]

link

Deano Cleaver said in the end, the 2 machines are within 80% of each other's power, under most conditions. Which ultimately, on a TV screen, means looking the same.

Is that true ..I'll be surprised if we actually see more than 6/7 games using that engine..

It was an emphatic "half"...

 

[DeanoC]

Deano Cleaver said in the end, the 2 machines are within 80% of each other's power, under most conditions. Which ultimately, on a TV screen, means looking the same.

Assuming Deano Cleaver is me... I never said that, I said that for a CPU software rasterisation engine, they would probably be fairly close. In these situations, the FLOPs advantage of Cell is matched by Xenon better integer ops. But this is a special case, something that shouldn't be used as a generalisation.

 

[AlNom]

It must have been Cleaver who said it then.

 

[London Geezer]

Deano Cleaver said in the end, the 2 machines are within 80% of each other's power, under most conditions. Which ultimately, on a TV screen, means looking the same.

I never said that

Did too!! It's on someone's signature!!

I said that for a CPU software rasterisation engine, they would probably be fairly close. In these situations, the FLOPs advantage of Cell is matched by Xenon better integer ops. But this is a special case, something that shouldn't be used as a generalisation

Did not!! Not like that!


How d'u spell your surname anyway? I was pretty sure that was it...

 

[blakjedi]

How d'u spell your surname anyway? I was pretty sure that was it...

calver man!

 

[jvd]

Did too!! It's on someone's signature!!

Na the quote your talking about clearly says cpus . It says the xbox 360 cpu and cell