Xbox Series... M?

[arandomguy]

A zen 4 would be faster in every way over zen 2. I don't really see a huge issue outside of perhaps infinity cache.

Not saying it's a insurmountable issue but not comparable to the exact same uarch just blocked slightly higher.

Also in terms of a mobile target it may not be universally faster. For one a lower frequency target would likely mean shifting further into the efficiency side of the freq/power curve. Clocking at the same speed on Zen 4 (or later) vs 2 otherwise would be massively faster. Then again there's also the memory issue, as if the memory subsystem is not identical that changes characteristics.

 

[eastmen]

Not saying it's a insurmountable issue but not comparable to the exact same uarch just blocked slightly higher.

Also in terms of a mobile target it may not be universally faster. For one a lower frequency target would likely mean shifting further into the efficiency side of the freq/power curve. Clocking at the same speed on Zen 4 (or later) vs 2 otherwise would be massively faster. Then again there's also the memory issue, as if the memory subsystem is not identical that changes characteristics.

Yea they should be able to get zen 4 @ series s cpu speeds. Series s is 3.4ghz smt mode and 3.6ghz 8 core. The z1 extreme has a base clock of 3.3ghz https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-z1-extreme

The only real issue is ram and cost most likely.

 

[mpg1]

Why ? they introduced a third hardware spec last generation and had zero issue ? The one s had the gpu @ 914mhz vs 853

I don't think Ms would have any issue introducing another spec if its more powerful than the previous one

The One S wasn't a different target spec.

 

[fehu]

After the One X switched completely the memory setup, I give a lot of credit to MS's hw abstraction ability.
If they really want to build one they are the ones that can do it.
But will not.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

After the One X switched completely the memory setup, I give a lot of credit to MS's hw abstraction ability.
If they really want to build one they are the ones that can do it.
But will not.

To what extent did they switch the memory setup? I thought pretty much everything pertaining to X1X vs XB1 was more, faster, or both?

I do agree that MS's abstraction capabilities make them the ones to change HW config at the same performance level, if anyone. I don't quite agree with "they won't" because I haven't yet seen anything that absolutely rules that out, I just don't think it's terribly likely within this generation.

 

[eastmen]

To what extent did they switch the memory setup? I thought pretty much everything pertaining to X1X vs XB1 was more, faster, or both?

I do agree that MS's abstraction capabilities make them the ones to change HW config at the same performance level, if anyone. I don't quite agree with "they won't" because I haven't yet seen anything that absolutely rules that out, I just don't think it's terribly likely within this generation.

Microsoft removed the edram from the one/s when they made the x. So the x doesn't have that 32megs of edram on the apu.

I surely think that for MS they'd be able to do it.

 

[eastmen]

What I've heard:
- 3.5 canceled
- any 3 derivatives, navi3x and apu, will keep the hw bug
- rdna4 is still on track for sometime in 2024
- until then we eat our shorts

I could understand canceling 3.5 for desktop. However It would seem odd to skip the apu versions esp if rdna 4 is a fall 2024 product. That means they will go almost a year and a half without a new apu entry.

Have you heard anything about rnda 4 itself? Any changes to ray tracing ?

 

[fehu]

nothing reliable

 

[milk]

I don't quite agree with "they won't" because I haven't yet seen anything that absolutely rules that out, I just don't think it's terribly likely within this generation.

Do you expect them to refactor the current consoles into a smaller node for a slim revion eventually?

Because what I believe is whenever they do that, they will take the oportunity and use the newer available arch instead of maintaining their APU as is. They might, of course, favour cost reduction over big performance gains, but there will be some evolution. That's my bet.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Do you expect them to refactor the current consoles into a smaller node for a slim revion eventually?

Because what I believe is whenever they do that, they will take the oportunity and use the newer available arch instead of maintaining their APU as is. They might, of course, favour cost reduction over big performance gains, but there will be some evolution. That's my bet.

I certainly expect a 5nm Series X. I do wonder if they'll keep the Series S on 7nm for cost, but I think it's more likely to also make the transition to 5nm.

Within the same generation, I think you're right that there's a good chance MS will adopt a newer uarch such as Zen 4, but I think it will be the same number of cores and the same clockspeed or greater. Current code could run without issue, but newer code could take advantage of a "free" performance boost.

I'm not so sure about the GPU though. RDNA3's something of a damp squib, unfortunately, although its mildly improved RT performance coupled with being ready to go at 5nm might make it more cost effective than porting RDNA2 to 5nm. What do you reckon there?

 

[milk]

I certainly expect a 5nm Series X. I do wonder if they'll keep the Series S on 7nm for cost, but I think it's more likely to also make the transition to 5nm.

Within the same generation, I think you're right that there's a good chance MS will adopt a newer uarch such as Zen 4, but I think it will be the same number of cores and the same clockspeed or greater. Current code could run without issue, but newer code could take advantage of a "free" performance boost.

I'm not so sure about the GPU though. RDNA3's something of a damp squib, unfortunately, although its mildly improved RT performance coupled with being ready to go at 5nm might make it more cost effective than porting RDNA2 to 5nm. What do you reckon there?

My guesses would be MS would make use of the latest ZEN and RDNA uarchs available when time comes for a revision, simply because they can. There will be efficiency gains, and some small performance ones, but the ultimate goal would still be to reduce costs, heat, and size.

For Series S, the ultimate goal definetly is to reach a steamdeck/switch form factor. When that's doable, I think they'll try.

If not, I see two paths for Series S:

1. keep the exact same real-world performance target but take advantage of new architecture eficiencies and node to reduce cost, heat and size as much as possible, and cut price as agressively as economically viable. Perhaps cheapening the power suply and fans significantly for thar goal.

2. Maintain compatibility with the previous series S, while reaching parity with the ONE X in the aspects its falling behind ( 6 Tflops GPU, 12Gigs of ram etc ) so it can play games at slightly higher fps/res than Series S vanilla, and play previous gen games at the Series X settings.

For the premium Series X, I don't imagine MS wants or needs to reduce price as much as reduce the size of the unit significantly. They probably will take the oportunity to close the gap with PS5 in all the small diferences it holds an edge (higher clocks, double ROPs) so the Series X Slim is hands down superior in every game in every scenario. They will take it an inch ahead of the PS5 in those things and nothing more. Memory ammount or speed won't change, nor will SSD streaming tech, audio, etc..

For both revisions, devs wont be required to make custom enhancements for new games targetting the new performance profiles. Unlike how it was done with ONE X and PS4 Pro. Games will play in compatibility mode by default, but devs will be encouraged to test games in unlocked perf. mode for higher fps and average res (for games where res is variable) and whatever other features scale automatically on each engine. Devs will be allowed to make deliberate tweaks targetting specifically the revisions, but won't be expected to.

It would not be a midgen refresh in the same scope as last gens One X, but more like how the One S was. But I'm expecting to see some small but apreciable perf bump.

 

[LiveGamer]

Why not a tv form factor? Nobody has made a 40" portable yet.

Lol people said the iPad form factor wouldn't take off and we see how that turned out.

Nintendo deliberately added a kickstand to the switch because they knew people enjoy playing it on a table or surface of some kind with controller detached.

Why is a 10 inch tablet out of the question?

And with most media apps already on the Xbox OS it would make a fantastic media device.

 

[fehu]

I admit to not being a qualified person for judging mobiles because think that even switch is huge, but still keeps selling.
Imho best mobile form factor -> Gamboy SP u.u

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A higher clockspeed is a relatively simple change to accommodate for in terms of existing software compatibility. Architectural changes (especially on the CPU side, such as Zen 2->4 or whatever) would add more complications even if it's overall faster.

The big complication in terms of a hypothetical mobile oriented design would be if they moved off GDDR6. Any alternative is going to be a tradeoff design.

And architectural change while potentially non trivial is something that MS has a lot of experience in making mostly trivial for developers on Windows. There's no reason they couldn't still do significant architectural changes and still have cross compatibility, at worst they would limit or exclude the use of new architectural features that aren't possible to make cross compatible though abstraction.

Whether they would want to do that or not, however, is a whole other story.

Regards,
SB

 

[fehu]

Where is Microsoft’s handheld Xbox?

Microsoft has been focused on cloud gaming via phones instead.

www.theverge.com

Sources familiar with Microsoft’s Xbox plans tell me the company was prototyping a cloud-focused Xbox handheld previously. Microsoft has developed a lightweight version of the Xbox user interface that can run on handheld devices, dedicated cloud consoles, and TVs. While we’ve seen this interface appear on some Samsung TVs, the dedicated Xbox cloud console that Microsoft first announced in 2021 was canceled as Microsoft pivoted toward the TV streaming app instead.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Seeing Sony's streaming portable, that seems a good move on MS's part!

 

[cheapchips]

If they actually bought it to market before Sony turn on cloud streaming on the Portal it would look like a good device in comparison.

(And where's streaming access to my library dammit!)

 

[fehu]

If even sony is having a hard time positioning the new portal, think microsoft entering the handled market before the portal, with a handled console that stops working when wifi drops a little.
If you do it before it's a failure, if you do it after it's a pathetic copy, if you don't do it it's a lack of foresight.

 

[eastmen]

Where is Microsoft’s handheld Xbox?

Microsoft has been focused on cloud gaming via phones instead.

www.theverge.com

MS had multiple prototypes when I was still there. Including steam deck/ ally type devices.

I don't think a streaming only device is the right way to go for these systems.

 

[cheapchips]

I don't think a streaming only device is the right way to go for these systems.

I think streaming only limits it to more or less to a home only device, which in turn limits it's value.

Or at least it's perceived value when the Deck/ Switch will be just $100 more. I've use tablet+controller and Steamdeck loads for xCloud and PC streaming around the house. It's nice that the Deck can run native* games though.

*Whatever that means with SteamOS.