Xbox Series... M?

[eastmen]

Yeah, fair point. It may depend on how powerful the Switch 2 is. If ~XB1 levels, then being able to match the Switch 2's library in a portable form factor might be worthwhile? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I really do wish they'd have handled their two tier approach differently: a discless Series S with 44CU's on an SoC with 12GB of memory (ala XB1X) RDNA2+Zen 3+GDDR6+SSD and a Series X with a disc drive and a discrete GPU+CPU that would knock the spots off of the PS5.

I think that would've made for an interesting fight: a Series S that's basically as powerful as the PS5, but always 4GB worth of GDDR6 cheaper and a really high end Series X that could trade blows with high end PC's.

But anyway, sorry, that's besides the point.

What are the options for memory for a portable Series S? Could LPDDR5 do the trick or do we have to wait for LPDDR6 for compatibility's sake? I don't really know enough about memory and signalling rates etc to say. In terms of raw bandwidth, LPDDR5 on the right bus can do the trick, but is raw bandwidth the only aspect that needs addressing?

The current series s in a portable would likely outpower a switch 2 if it releases in 2024. Esp if its a series s that has an zen 4 and rdna 4 in it.

A 44cu series s would limit the size of the box and would be much more costly then what they ended up with. However we could ideally see a portable s with better performance clock for clock using a newer zen/rdna and we could even see more ram depending on its time frame for releases.

I think for ram performance we'd need either LPDDR6 , then to just use GDR or for them to use infinity cache.

Bandwidth is certainly top of the priority list. As I sated in a previous post the ally has a 8core/16 thread zen4 that runs 3.3ghz and boosts to 5.1ghz . The series s is 3.4-3.6ghz . zen 4 is likely 20-40% faster clock for clock over the zen 2 I believe the ally has a 2.1ghz 12cu rdna 3 while the series s has a 20cu 1.55ghz rdna 2. so you would need either more cu's or higher clock speeds on the ally. A rdna 3.5 refresh could address that

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

The Xbox one isn't getting new games anymore. They stopped supporting the system.

Completely? I only really follow PlayStation releases because that's where I game, but I still see a lot of cross generation games there, so I'd be pretty astonished if that's not the case with XBox too.

We already have portable handhelds on the cusp of series s power. I don't know why you'd go all the way back to the xbox one in terms of performance.

True, but those are expensive, high-end devices. My proposition is purely for viability at a mass market prices somewhere in the near future.

The Series S in a portable form factor would be great, but I think the viability of that is still a few years away.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The Series S power level is the way to go for sure. Better they wait until that's possible like 2025 or 2026.

 

[eastmen]

Completely? I only really follow PlayStation releases because that's where I game, but I still see a lot of cross generation games there, so I'd be pretty astonished if that's not the case with XBox too.

True, but those are expensive, high-end devices. My proposition is purely for viability at a mass market prices somewhere in the near future.

The Series S in a portable form factor would be great, but I think the viability of that is still a few years away.

Yea they announced it after the showcase. At least from MS's perspective. Remember Sony sold almost a 120m ps4's while ms sold less than 60m xbox ones. We may see a sprinkle of 3rd party games appear on it but not many at all.

Like I said the ally is already almost there

Ally
Zen 4 8/16 threads 24MB cache 3.3ghz base up to 5.1ghz boost
RDNA 3 12 CU up to 2.7ghz
APU power 9-30w

Series S

Zen 2 8/16 thread 3.4.3.6ghz (16/8 thread modes)
RDNA 2 20 cu 1.56ghz
total system power is 85w


When you look at the differences the cpu dispite being clocked lower in the ally is much more powerful. Zen 3 is up to 19% faster than zen 2 and zen 4 is another 10-20% faster clock for clock over zen 3. Rdna 3 is slightly more performant than rdna 2 at the same clocks.

I wager using just zen 4 and matching the series s clocks at 3.4ghz for 16 threads and 3.6ghz for 8 threads would actually make the system perform much better than the series s in cpu limited games. on the gpu side they need to either hit roughly double the clock speeds to make up for the 12 vs 20cu or include 20cu at the 1.56ghz of the series s. RDNA 3 is slightly more performant than rdna 2 , 3.5 should hopefully improve that but 4 might be the game changer in respect to that.

The only major issue is memory bandwidth. But in terms of a portable series we are right there.

Battery life on the ally in 30w mode is just over an hour and a half. So Ms could provide a larger battery to hit 2hours or perhaps more efficent zen + rdna would allow for longer battery life. Of course that would be the most demanding series s games. If you are playing xbox original/ 360/one games they should all use much less power. If Ms was to limit to just 720p or 800p depending on the screen resolution it could save more battery also. They could even add FSR 2.0 to all BC games and allow developers to add it for all series s titles

 

[see colon]

Completely? I only really follow PlayStation releases because that's where I game, but I still see a lot of cross generation games there, so I'd be pretty astonished if that's not the case with XBox too.

Microsoft have no first party games in development that will release natively on Xbox One. 3rd parties can still make Xbox One games, though. All of the games Microsoft develops are day one Gamepass games with cloud support, so Xbox One owners can stream new releases if they are Gamepass Ultimate subscribers. I believe Minecraft Legends was the last first party Xbox One game.

 

[mpg1]

Seems like power consumption for gaming is around 70-75W on Series S. So a die shrink would half that?

Probably doable but with poor battery life....

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Seems like power consumption for gaming is around 70-75W on Series S. So a die shrink would half that?

Probably doable but with poor battery life....

If memory serves, 7nm>5nm and 5nm>3nm both offer the same performance as their previous node with a 30% reduction in power.

So that's 75x0.7x0.7=36.75 watts

Pushing it in terms of a traditional handheld, but pretty doable in a laptop/tablet form factor. Probably laptop if 5nm, chubby tablet if 3nm.

 

[orangpelupa]

And combine that with a downgrade of the game rendering to 720p at system level. So it could run at lower watts while mobile.

Then allow it goes to 40w when docked and run games at 1080p. The dock would need a cooling system to complement the handheld's

 

[eastmen]

Seems like power consumption for gaming is around 70-75W on Series S. So a die shrink would half that?

Probably doable but with poor battery life....

Yes but Zen 3 is faster clock for clock and uses less energy than zen 2. Zen 3+ is again faster and uses less energy than zen 3 and zen 4 is again faster clock for clock and uses less power. So when you put them all together on the cpu side you can save a lot of power.

A question would be how much more efficient clock for clock is rdna 3 vs rdna 2. Also apparently later this year we are getting an rdna 3.5 refresh which is another question on how efficient it is vs rdna 2 . Then there is the long shot of using rdna 4 which would be late 2024.

You don't need the die shrink doing as much work as you might think in terms of power.

 

[mpg1]

Yes but Zen 3 is faster clock for clock and uses less energy than zen 2. Zen 3+ is again faster and uses less energy than zen 3 and zen 4 is again faster clock for clock and uses less power. So when you put them all together on the cpu side you can save a lot of power.

A question would be how much more efficient clock for clock is rdna 3 vs rdna 2. Also apparently later this year we are getting an rdna 3.5 refresh which is another question on how efficient it is vs rdna 2 . Then there is the long shot of using rdna 4 which would be late 2024.

You don't need the die shrink doing as much work as you might think in terms of power.

Yeah I mean I don't Microsoft will go out of it's way to create separate different hardware spec for a handheld. The question is basically "Could the hardware for a slim Series S be also be used in a handheld as well". Because that would keep things simple in terms of production and compatibility.

I'm not sure Microsoft will use significantly different architecture for a Series S revision as it's a cheap console. I mean I guess it's possible they could take whatever chip they would use in the Series S revisision and slightly downclock it? But that might be tricky.

 

[fehu]

Also apparently later this year we are getting an rdna 3.5 refresh

You keep repeating it, but I keep hearing that's been canceled in favour of rdna 4

 

[arandomguy]

Yeah I mean I don't Microsoft will go out of it's way to create separate different hardware spec for a handheld. The question is basically "Could the hardware for a slim Series S be also be used in a handheld as well". Because that would keep things simple in terms of production and compatibility.

I'm not sure Microsoft will use significantly different architecture for a Series S revision as it's a cheap console. I mean I guess it's possible they could take whatever chip they would use in the Series S revisision and slightly downclock it? But that might be tricky.

I'd say it would be unlikely to scale down in that way. GDDR6 in a handheld is going to be a big impediment. Power budget alone on that is going to be something like 6w for the memory. Physical space will also be more challenging due to trace requirements. Taking the XBS's hardware directly would be even larger in terms of physical size (and also z-height).

 

[mpg1]

I'd say it would be unlikely to scale down in that way. GDDR6 in a handheld is going to be a big impediment. Power budget alone on that is going to be something like 6w for the memory. Physical space will also be more challenging due to trace requirements. Taking the XBS's hardware directly would be even larger in terms of physical size (and also z-height).

I mean the existing Series S model is using 70-75w for gaming and slim revisions typically cut power consumption in half...

It would definitely get into the upper ranges of the ballpark in terms of size and power consumption for handhelds imo. Might not be enough for Microsoft to be comfortable with the battery life though.

 

[eastmen]

Yeah I mean I don't Microsoft will go out of it's way to create separate different hardware spec for a handheld. The question is basically "Could the hardware for a slim Series S be also be used in a handheld as well". Because that would keep things simple in terms of production and compatibility.

I'm not sure Microsoft will use significantly different architecture for a Series S revision as it's a cheap console. I mean I guess it's possible they could take whatever chip they would use in the Series S revisision and slightly downclock it? But that might be tricky.

What if its the other way around.

What if MS uses a zen 4 8/16core 3.6ghz + rdna 4 20cu @ 1.5ghz for the series m and s slim or s refresh ? Like I said in a previous post any chips that run hotter or use more power to hit clocks speeds can be diverted to the s replacement while the cream of the crop stays on the mobile sku.

You'd be able to cut the series s box size down drasticly

You keep repeating it, but I keep hearing that's been canceled in favour of rdna 4

I dunno, i've seen it a few time in the apu space. Perhaps for desktop its canceled but for the apu / mobile it will remain ? Is rdna 4 getting moved up into 2023 then ?

 

[fehu]

What I've heard:
- 3.5 canceled
- any 3 derivatives, navi3x and apu, will keep the hw bug
- rdna4 is still on track for sometime in 2024
- until then we eat our shorts

 

[mpg1]

They are not going to create an additional (third) target spec imo. And they are not going to do anything that disrupts existing Series S consoles compatibility for future games imo.

Which means a handheld basically has to be slim revision Series S hardware. It can't deviate much.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

They are not going to create an additional (third) target spec imo. And they are not going to do anything that disrupts existing Series S consoles compatibility for future games imo.

Which means a handheld basically has to be slim revision Series S hardware. It can't deviate much.

I agree. At least for the course of this generation. I could see MS following Eastmen's proposal on 3nm with the following generation, however.

"Compatible with most of last generation's games" is an easier sell than "the portable version of this generation's console is compatible with most of its library" IMO.

 

[eastmen]

They are not going to create an additional (third) target spec imo. And they are not going to do anything that disrupts existing Series S consoles compatibility for future games imo.

Which means a handheld basically has to be slim revision Series S hardware. It can't deviate much.

Why ? they introduced a third hardware spec last generation and had zero issue ? The one s had the gpu @ 914mhz vs 853

I don't think Ms would have any issue introducing another spec if its more powerful than the previous one

 

[arandomguy]

A higher clockspeed is a relatively simple change to accommodate for in terms of existing software compatibility. Architectural changes (especially on the CPU side, such as Zen 2->4 or whatever) would add more complications even if it's overall faster.

The big complication in terms of a hypothetical mobile oriented design would be if they moved off GDDR6. Any alternative is going to be a tradeoff design.

 

[eastmen]

A higher clockspeed is a relatively simple change to accommodate for in terms of existing software compatibility. Architectural changes (especially on the CPU side, such as Zen 2->4 or whatever) would add more complications even if it's overall faster.

The big complication in terms of a hypothetical mobile oriented design would be if they moved off GDDR6. Any alternative is going to be a tradeoff design.

A zen 4 would be faster in every way over zen 2. I don't really see a huge issue outside of perhaps infinity cache.