Xbox pulls into UK second place

[Teasy]

That's JUST the PS2. Not the entire gaming market of course. If you want the entire gaming market then you need to add up the sales of ALL consoles in both regions. We talked about this before.

I didn't actually mean that, but I can see how it could have looked as if I was saying that I believed the European market is 75% of the U.S market, after looking back at what I wrote. I'll explain what I actually meant:

Johhny was using PS2 sales to measure the size of different markets, and at the same time said that the European market was 60% of the U.S market. Well I have no real problem with him using PS2 to measure a market, but if he wants to use PS2 numbers then he should at least be consistent. In which case he should have looked at PS2 sales and saw that according to those sales Europe is more like 75% of the U.S market. So I did not mean to say either way how big it may be, I don't know that, I was saying that if he uses PS2 numbers, which he was, Europe is more like 75% rather then 60%.

As for how big it actually is, I can't be sure because we don't have any real sales data for all consoles in all regions, so I won't bother discussing it.

Oh and yes, we did talk about this sort of thing, more accurately Europe+Japan vs U.S, and I haven't actually finished yet. I totally forgot about that thread until you just mentioned it so I'll have a look at it and post a response when I have time to deal with a lenghy post like that

ha, I knew you'd say this. keep in mind that thi means you also ca not trust Nitnendo's numbers as well. this is exactly the same thing I was saying months ago when you and a few others ran bout using nintendo's number as fact.

Your logic is flawed, I do not trust MS's numbers at all because they very recently lied about European numbers.. that much was obvious when they changed "sold" to "shipped" after they were called on the numbers. Where as no such thing has occured with Nintendo AFAIR, maybe a long time in the past, I can't remember, I'm sure someone will drag something similar up from 5 years ago or something , but certainly not in this generation.

Also, I remember that 500,000 number being "shipped", not sold.

Yeah after someone called MS on the sold numbers MS changed the numbers to shipped.

 

[Qroach]

Hey, read what I said. Johhny was using PS2 sales to measure the size of different markets,

ok, i didn't relize he did the same thing. my mistake.

Oh and yes, we did talk about it, and I haven't actually finished yet. I totally forgot about that thread until you just mentioned it so I'll have a look at it and post a response when I have time to deal with a lenghy post like that

I don't know if there's any point to, but do what you like.

Quote:
ha, I knew you'd say this. keep in mind that thi means you also ca not trust Nitnendo's numbers as well. this is exactly the same thing I was saying months ago when you and a few others ran bout using nintendo's number as fact.

Your logic is flawed, I do not trust MS's numbers at all because they very recently lied about European numbers.. that much was obvious when they changed "sold" to "shipped" after they were called on the numbers.

Um, what? I don't remember seeing MS get caught on this. As far as I can remember, they ALWAYS said shipped an many people took that as sold. to consumer.

Where as no such thing has occured with Nintendo AFAIR, maybe a long time in the past, I can't remember, I'm sure someone will drag something similar up from 5 years ago or something , but certainly not in this generation.

Oh please, take the blinders off. Nintendo almost ALWAYS inflates the numbers they quote. I guess you don't remrmber at E3 when nintendo said they sold 2.2 million Gamecubes when Ms said they sold 1.7 or 1.8 in north america? Who was't telling the truth there?

Yeah after someone called MS on the sold numbers MS changed the numbers to shipped.

I'm not sure what universe that happened in.

 

[Teasy]

I don't know if there's any point to, but do what you like.

I agree, there is no point really, although perhaps not for the reason your thinking, but I will post anyway.

Um, what? I don't remember seeing MS get caught on this. As far as I can remember, they ALWAYS said shipped an many people took that as sold. to consumer.

I remember at the time discussing this and you swearing blind that they had sold that many in Europe and that my comments that they hadn't sold 500,000 were unfounded. Now you say that you always thought it was 500,000 shipped not sold.

Anyway I remember a while later someone, maybe Nintendo, accusing MS of lying, and then MS changing the numbers to shipped, there were a few discussions about this. I'll have to look back at some threads to see if I'm remembering rightly... because obviously I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it.

Oh please, take the blinders off. Nintendo almost ALWAYS inflates the numbers they quote.

As of yet Nintendo haven't gave a number so insanely inflated that there accused of lying and then changed the numbers from sold to shipped to cover it up. So wether they inflate numbers or not doesn't put them in the same PR (lying) league as MS.

I guess you don't remrmber at E3 when nintendo said they sold 2.2 million Gamecubes when Ms said they sold 1.7 or 1.8 in north america?

I don't know.. who? Seriously what were the U.S sales at that time?

I'm not sure what universe that happened in.

Maybe it didn't happen in your universe, but AFAIR it did happen in the universe with Earth in it

Of course almost this whole post is based on memory, therefore I reserve the right to change my mind completely if I read past threads and realise I totally mis-remembered certain facts

 

[Qroach]

I agree, there is no point really, although perhaps not for the reason your thinking, but I will post anyway.

Which reason would that be? That you have to get in the last word

I remember at the time discussing this and you swearing blind that they had sold that many in Europe and that my comments that they hadn't sold 500,000 were unfounded. Now you say that you always thought it was 500,000 shipped not sold.

Actually whren this argument came out i clearly remember people coming in here and saying that it was "shipped" not sold. there was also lot's of argument over semantics. sold to retail or sold to the consumer, blah blah blah...

Anyway I remember a while later someone, maybe Nintendo, accusing MS of lying, and then MS changing the numbers to shipped, there were a few discussions about this. I'll have to look back at some threads to see if I'm remembering rightly... because obviously I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it.

No idea where you're getting this from, but I don't remember Nintendo EVER commenting on Xbox sales numbers.

As of yet Nintendo haven't gave a number so insanely inflated that there accused of lying and then changed the numbers from sold to shipped to cover it up. So wether they inflate numbers or not doesn't put them in the same PR (lying) league as MS.

They said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes at E3! That was clearly not the truth and I can remember arguing about that. Sure they were accused of lying, by everyone that saw the nintendo numbers and saw the actual sales numbers from independant sources. do you need to defend them to the very end?

I don't know.. who? Seriously what were the U.S sales at that time?

1.7 -1.8 million Xbox units and gamecube was around 1.5 -1.6 million units sold at the time. At that same conference MS stated their number for US sales, and we ALL know that nintendo hasn't caught up in the US.

Maybe it didn't happen in your universe, but AFAIR it did happen in the universe with Earth in it

Sorry, you must have been sleeping, since you dreamed that up

Of course almost this whole post is based on memory, therefore I reserve the right to change my mind completely if I read past threads and realise I totally mis-remembered certain facts

If you aren't so certain, then why are you bothering to argue about it? IS this your MO?

 

[Magnum PI]

another thread degenerating into a qroach<=>teasy flamewar...

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The PS2 has sold roughly 16 million in the US and 10 million in Europe. My 60% is just about right for Europe.

Qroach: The German PC market is the largest and it's possible that the sum of the PC + Console market is larger in Germany, but the UK market is the largest European console market.

 

[Nexiss]

I don't really want to get involved, but I actually do remember several people from here saying (very adamantly) that the numbers MS had stated were sold through to consumers and not shipped (although I can't remember if Qroach was one, not that I really care). I also remember the actual statement from MS being very misleading, as well as someone from Nintendo criticizing MS on the subject and then MS changing the wording.
I am fairly certain of all of this, and unless the topics have been deleted we can always go back and check on it.

Anywho, it is moot, all the manufacturers try to shed the best light they can on their sales, whether that means quoting the most optimistic approximation of sales or quoting shipped numbers (while wording it in a tricky manner).

 

[Legion]

Johnny if what you are saying is so how much would you esimate the rest of europe in terms of units sold? I keep hearing that the xbox is doing terribly in the rest of europe but i have yet to see actual figures.

Is it possible that some one could shed some light on this?

 

[wazoo]

As for the console market, Uk=France+Germany in terms of sales in 2001

 

[Teasy]

Which reason would that be? That you have to get in the last word

I don't wish to be picky about your zinging but that doesn't make much sense. You said it was pointless for me to post again in that thread. I agreed, but said the reason why it was pointless was not the reason you'd be thinking off, and now you ask if the reason I think it may be pointless to post is that I want the last word.. hmm, doesn't make sense that. My reason for it being pointless was actually that I know you won't listen no matter what I say.

They said they sold 2.2 million gamecubes at E3! That was clearly not the truth and I can remember arguing about that. Sure they were accused of lying, by everyone that saw the nintendo numbers and saw the actual sales numbers from independant sources. do you need to defend them to the very end?

1.7 -1.8 million Xbox units and gamecube was around 1.5 -1.6 million units sold at the time. At that same conference MS stated their number for US sales, and we ALL know that nintendo hasn't caught up in the US.

So 1.6 million according to NPD, add another 35% to that number to get total sales, ask Johhny or Ben about that if you want to argue with the reasoning and you have around.. yes you guessed it, 2.2 million

If you aren't so certain, then why are you bothering to argue about it?

I'm queit certain about it, but I'll have to check to make sure what I'm remember happened exactly how I remember it, I know for certain its pretty close.

Johhny

The PS2 has sold roughly 16 million in the US and 10 million in Europe

Where do you get those numbers from?

 

[Qroach]

guys,

I think you're correct about the PC market in Germany. When our rep said that heas talking about a PC product we're releasing there eventually (FA3.5)


Teasy,

My reason for it being pointless was actually that I know you won't listen no matter what I say.

Ok, I considered that, I was just checking to see if you were thinking something I wasn't . I have no problem listening to someone when they give a reasonable believeable reply. At least an answer that doesn't contradict data I've seen.

So 1.6 million according to NPD, add another 35% to that number to get total sales, ask Johhny or Ben about that if you want to argue with the reasoning and you have around.. yes you guessed it, 2.2 million

How said that number was according to NDP at the time? I'm just saying that MS said that number at E3. Either way, Gamecube has NEVER surpassed the total number of xbox untis "sold" in america. This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Quincy-

This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.

IIRC I pointed out the problem with this back when we were still on the FuseTalk boards(right when the Q4 '01 numbers were coming in). MS was using NPD numbers at the time allowing them to adjust up twice(to actual units sold and then units shipped) to cover any dips in sales or simply show an enormous spike at any given point.

Nintendo's numbers were likely correct when they stated them @E3(I don't recall off the top of my head) while MS was understating their numbers considerably(that I do remember).

 

[Teasy]

How said that number was according to NDP at the time? I'm just saying that MS said that number at E3. Either way, Gamecube has NEVER surpassed the total number of xbox untis "sold" in america. This was the point I was making. nintendo claimed shipped numbers as SOLD. You do know that it's not possible for game cube to be at 2.2 million units sold when it's never been ahead of Xbox, correct? I don't even know why you are arguing that.

Hold on a moment, you never mentioned anything about Nintendo claiming to sell more then MS in the U.S at that time. You just said Nintendo claimed 2.2 million while sales from a independent company said 1.8 million for XBox and 1.6 million for GameCube. So what I was saying is if that was NPD numbers, or to be honest probably any numbers from a independent company, they will not be 100% accurate since they don't look at anwhere near all stores. So both GameCube and XBox could have been allot higher then 1.6 million and 1.8 million, maybe even with GameCube closer to 2.1-2.2 million. Where that would leave XBox I did not say, I would assume 2.4-2.5 million at that time.

BTW, I quickly checked back at a couple of threads and found a couple of interesting quotes:

MS said at this press conference that xbox has sold 500,000 consoles in Europe and Halo had a 88% attach rate. I guess it's not getting killed there since the price reduciton (I'm sure a few peopl aroun here will dispute thos numbers)

Hmm, is that or is that not you saying that MS said they sold, not shipped, 500,000 consoles in Europe?

In the same thread you argued with me when I claimed those sold numbers could not be true, you were adamant that they were true.

This is a Quote from GamingWorldx.com posted here:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewt...er=asc&highlight=xbox europe&start=40

Microsoft lies about Euro sales at E3

During E3 Microsoft made the bold claim that they had sold 500,000 Xbox consoles to the European market since its' March launch. The claim was originally pitched as the "sell-through" number of consoles sold, however, after a comment from Nintendo of Europe boss David Gosen, Microsoft have changed the sales number from "sell through" to "in the channel" (shipped).

David Gosen said that the figures recorded by MCV (official industry magazine) were "around half their number". So does Microsoft plan on winning this war by trying to falsify sales numbers? I certainly hope not.

Just as I remembered it, MS said they had sold 500,000, which is backed up by your own comment above, until David Gosen questioned that. Then MS changed its story to shipped 500,000 consoles.

 

[Goldni]

Never the less, So XB outsells GCN in the UK (or Europe) for the first time since both consoles European launch. Whooa, it's about time. On the other side of the token XB has outsold GCN every month since April..when the GCN outsells XB (my prediction) in Oct, Nov and Dec here in the US I wont break out the 'bubbly' if I was NOA either. I'd say the same thing..it's about time.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Well, the early numbers look bad for GCN in North America for October, but we might as well wait another couple weeks to debate them.

Console (US/EU/JP) Sales:

PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million
GCN: 3.5/800k/2.7 = 7 million
Xbox: 4.6/600k/300k = 5.5 million

That's a reasonable estimate, I think.

The October US numbers are probably going to be:

PS2 - 1 million, Xbox - 500k, GCN - 375k.

Remember to multiply NPD * 1.5 to get the right figure.

US Nov + Dec should be around 3, 1.5, 1.5 respectively.

I don't think the GCN will ever catch up to Xbox again in US or UK.

MS has really gone after Nintendo - lowered price, bundled Sega software, Rare buyout. It's almost like they realized they weren't going to catch Sony this generation and switched gears into anti-Nintendo mode to make sure they finish second.

 

[mat]

If i look at the current bundles: (from an Austrian retailer)
Gamecube + SMS 269€
PS2 + F1 2002 299€
XBOX +JSRF + SegaGT2002 259€
its not surprising that xbox sells better than gamecube (cheaper and more games)

 

[Qroach]

Teasy,

Hold on a moment, you never mentioned anything about Nintendo claiming to sell more then MS in the U.S at that time. You just said Nintendo claimed 2.2 million while sales from a independent company said 1.8 million for XBox and 1.6 million for GameCube.

let me put it this way, Nintendo lied about the GC sales numbers at E3. I'm willing to drop this discussion since you're also claiming that MS lied at E3. I can at least admit that publishers have always inflated sales numbers, including MS. Can you at least admit that Nintendo does the same thing so we don't have the same discusson regarding this over and over?

The link you posted above has the same discussion with you arguing with everyone else about nintendo NOT inflating their numbers. All I have to do regarding that is remind everyone that the sales numbers Nintendo gave a week after launch in japan were significantly higher than the sales numbers from independant sources. Yet again inflating numbers.

Just as I remembered it, MS said they had sold 500,000, which is backed up by your own comment above, until David Gosen questioned that. Then MS changed its story to shipped 500,000 consoles.

I'm not arguing that MS is incapable of inflating numbers. That's the reason why I will trust numbers from SONY/Nintendo/MS ONLY until I see independant numbers. what I am arguing is WHERE did MS change this form sold to shipped? from what I remrmber, MS or Ed Fries said during the press conference that they "sold" 500,000 in europe, and that was the ONLY place I can remrmber hearing that. Now tell me how can they "go back" and change a video clip with that said? i certainly don't recall a press release.

Also, why don't you post a link to the thread you quoted me from?

 

[wazoo]

I wonder how many people are hesitating between the Cube and Xbox. The lineup looks so much different IMO.

Fact is MS is quite aggresive in europe currently. It is impressive what things you can do/offer when you do not care about earning money.

 

[Teasy]

Well, the early numbers look bad for GCN in North America for October, but we might as well wait another couple weeks to debate them.

What early numbers?

Console (US/EU/JP) Sales:

PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million
GCN: 3.5/800k/2.7 = 7 million
Xbox: 4.6/600k/300k = 5.5 million

XBox is 4.2 million in the U.S not 4.6 and I'd be astounded if XBox was only 25% behind GameCube in Europe. My guestimate:

PS2: 16/10/11 = 37 million (not sure about PS2, so I won't argue).
GCN: 3.5/1.1/2.7 = 7.3 million
XBox: 4.2/600k/300k = 5.1 million

The October US numbers are probably going to be:

PS2 - 1 million, Xbox - 500k, GCN - 375k.

Wow.. what are the next English lottery numbers going to be?

I don't think the GCN will ever catch up to Xbox again in US or UK

Are you kidding?, GameCube could catch XBox in a single month in the U.K given that XBox is a measly 3,000 ahead. I mean comment, that's not even ahead, its 247,000 vs 250,000 AFAIR, that's neck and neck, 3000 is barely even a percentage point. Infact GameCube could catch XBox in a few days during the lead up to Christmas given how the sales fly up at that time of the year.

 

[Teasy]

I'm willing to drop this discussion since you're also claiming that MS lied at E3.

I'm not suprised that your now willing to drop this discussion.

I can at least admit that publishers have always inflated sales numbers, including MS. Can you at least admit that Nintendo does the same thing so we don't have the same discusson regarding this over and over?

Yes I can admit its possible Nintendo have inflated numbers in the past, they very likely have at some times. But they have not been caught inflating numbers anywhere near to the degree MS have and I still trust them far more then MS. Also when have I just trusted Nintendo numbers and given them as fact without good reason too? I believed there 400,000 sold numbers because I could barely find a GameCube in the U.K after launch, I didn't believe MS's numbers for the exactly the opposite reason.

All I have to do regarding that is remind everyone that the sales numbers Nintendo gave a week after launch in japan were significantly higher than the sales numbers from independant sources.

Did those independent sources take sales from 100% of Japan?

what I am arguing is WHERE did MS change this form sold to shipped? from what I remrmber, MS or Ed Fries said during the press conference that they "sold" 500,000 in europe, and that was the ONLY place I can remrmber hearing that.

Just a little while ago in this thread you claimed MS didn't say sold at all. You said that they said shipped from the start. Now after I posted those quotes you say they never said shipped at all and infact said sold instead.. which is it?

Also, why don't you post a link to the thread you quoted me from?

I didn't post a link because it was a quote from you, so I didn't think you'd need proof that you said it. Do you really want me to post the link?