XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[brasnial]

spelling the bane of my life plus extra thoughts out "all digital" vs "physical media".

This is about a DRM policy that is just plain awful. It would still be awfulif it was applied to DD and physical media didn't exist. What Microsoft is proposing is that the consumer lose any right to "own" a game. Instead, Microsoft retains all privilidges and only allows consumers to do what they see fit.

The game industry as a whole has been moving this way for a while now. People have been getting more and more uncomfortable with it - as you can see by the backlash at DRM schemes like EA implemented. This is not a new concern, and it isn't just because Microsoft included a physical drive in the XBox One*. Microsoft just pushed it a little too far and are now seeing the backlash.

I think the question is will the backlash be enough to stop this model of DRM and make publishers and platform makers reconsider - or will people just bend over and take it. The only thing that will cause MS to reconsider is a significant drop in their bottom line, and that will only happen if reality follows the internet polls. I guess we'll see if that happens in November.

* On a side note - I have trouble with this name. Every time I abbreviate it it looks stupid. XB1 doesn't work, because that was used for the original XBox. XBone looks like X-Bone, and I think that is silly and can be taken as disrespectful. I really wish they had picked a different name.[/QUOTE]

Your right Sony should jump on the digital bandwagon now and help shape the future not leave open to one company to do as they please .......competition keeps a business honest .
Plan on only buying physical copies of games on my wii u with the PS 4 .....Xbox one I'll buy digital .
Now because of the game sharing feature of Xbox one for digital copies I'll be buying most of my games there that way my sisters kids my wife's sisters kids can use my games saving there parents a pretty penny in the process .

You see I can see advantages for my family circle .........so I'm not bothered by what Microsoft are offering .....in fact i'd like Sony to offer exactly the same deal from the get go ....hell i'd like Nintendo to offer the same deal .

You see I can then buy my nieces and nephews what ever machine they want for there Christmas or birthday be it a ps4 or Xbox one or wii u with out saddling there parents with the expense of buying the latest must have game .......you see most of the games they would want i'd buy anyway so it makes sense to me .

And as publisher or game developer it makes sense to allow digital sharing you build up a bigger fan base who in the end will end up buying there own games down the line

 

[Sigfried1977]

But Sony does this already. Hve been doing it for quite a bit longer than MS as a matter of fact. You can buy just about every last damn game released during the last couple of years digital if that's what you want. I'm perfectly cool with that because the company doesn't act like a dick about it.
The all-dd isn't even the sticking point here. The draconian DRM measures that treat me like a criminal are.

 

[brasnial]

But Sony does this already. Hve been doing it for quite a bit longer than MS as a matter of fact. You can buy just about every last damn game released during the last couple of years digital if that's what you want. I'm perfectly cool with that because the company doesn't act like a dick about it.
The all-dd isn't even the sticking point here. The draconian DRM measures that treat me like a criminal are.

I'm sorry to say this but most people would abuse a system that allows them too.......its not about believing everyone's a criminal its about not leaving a loop hole for people to abuse .
If a company leaves a loop hole that can be exploited for free games people will walk through that door way left open to them ....its doesn't mean there a criminal if they do abuse a system Microsoft are just making sure there system for digital sharing of games can not be abused by those who would give into temptation .
I believe we are all good people at heart but we all can be tempted by things that seem to give us something we want for free .

I'm a gamer just like you I see things differently from you that's all its about personal opinions nothing more .....I enjoy debating these things with my fellow gamers because even if we can't agree on what's best we do agree on this we love playing games and just want our hobby to flourish and prosper

 

[RacVic]

This just keeps going around in circles. Why should anyone be against a system that could potentially be fair to all parties is beyond me. The responsibility for this DRM mess we are faced with is shared equally between the companies and us the consumer. That companies didn't anticipate the consequences of the switch from analogue to digital is clear as day.

But how many of us didn't take advantage of that in some way form or fashion? How many downloaded or copied songs, movies or software without a cent going to the creator? If you are one of the few who hasn't then by all means you should feel free to protest the DRM policies we are now faced with. But I would venture to say that the vast majority of us have enjoyed in some way, form or fashion the loop holes in the system and taken advantage of same. And as with any system that doesn't try to be fair to everyone Peter will pay for Paul and Paul will pay for all.

If the MS DRM policy results in the creators getting money from every sale of their software I'm all for it. If it results in cheaper games I'm all for it. If to ensure the preceding all I have to do is have them check my XBOne every 24hrs then by all means check it. Because it's clear the present systems doesn't work for everyone and as long as that continues then we'll have to continue this painful dance we all helped to create.

All I want is to enjoy my games.

 

[Nesh]

I'm sorry to say this but most people would abuse a system that allows them too.......its not about believing everyone's a criminal its about not leaving a loop hole for people to abuse .
If a company leaves a loop hole that can be exploited for free games people will walk through that door way left open to them ....its doesn't mean there a criminal if they do abuse a system Microsoft are just making sure there system for digital sharing of games can not be abused by those who would give into temptation .
I believe we are all good people at heart but we all can be tempted by things that seem to give us something we want for free .

I'm a gamer just like you I see things differently from you that's all its about personal opinions nothing more .....I enjoy debating these things with my fellow gamers because even if we can't agree on what's best we do agree on this we love playing games and just want our hobby to flourish and prosper

Servitude by consent.....we find excuses to excuse them
Sigifried is right. They are being dicks. The consumer is not a criminal but the companies treat the consumer like the consumer wants to "steal" from their profit and so they have to take measures to "tie" him up. They also went a step farther to make him more dependent and take away from his original benefits with the excuse that they have something good for us and hence they had to take those measures to be able to give it. Its like a dictatorship in a micro scale. Dictators also have their own "good" reasons and excuses for being what they are. They are getting in the way of the consumer, who is the gamer, who is the guy that loves games, and thats me and I cant agree with this stance

 

[brasnial]

Servitude by consent.....we find excuses to excuse them
Sigifried is right. They are being dicks. The consumer is not a criminal but the companies treat the consumer like the consumer wants to "steal" from their profit and so they have to take measures to "tie" him up. They also went a step farther to make him more dependent and take away from his original benefits with the excuse that they have something good for us and hence they had to take those measures to be able to give it. Its like a dictatorship in a micro scale. Dictators also have their own "good" reasons and excuses for being what they are. They are getting in the way of the consumer, who is the gamer, who is the guy that loves games, and thats me and I cant agree with this stance

Do tell how are Microsoft dictating and ruling our lives you have a choice .......there called the wii u or PS 4 ....no one is forcing you to buy a Xbox one Microsoft do not have a monopoly.
You whole argument only works if Microsoft have a monopoly on power like a dictator which they clear don't

 

[brasnial]

This just keeps going around in circles. Why should anyone be against a system that could potentially be fair to all parties is beyond me. The responsibility for this DRM mess we are faced with is shared equally between the companies and us the consumer. That companies didn't anticipate the consequences of the switch from analogue to digital is clear as day.

But how many of us didn't take advantage of that in some way form or fashion? How many downloaded or copied songs, movies or software without a cent going to the creator? If you are one of the few who hasn't then by all means you should feel free to protest the DRM policies we are now faced with. But I would venture to say that the vast majority of us have enjoyed in some way, form or fashion the loop holes in the system and taken advantage of same. And as with any system that doesn't try to be fair to everyone Peter will pay for Paul and Paul will pay for all.

If the MS DRM policy results in the creators getting money from every sale of their software I'm all for it. If it results in cheaper games I'm all for it. If to ensure the preceding all I have to do is have them check my XBOne every 24hrs then by all means check it. Because it's clear the present systems doesn't work for everyone and as long as that continues then we'll have to continue this painful dance we all helped to create.

All I want is to enjoy my games.

Well said exspecialy the last bit ...this DRM argument is old but interesting in the extreme as it seems to be replacing the old Xbox live argument

 

[function]

Well said exspecialy the last bit ...this DRM argument is old but interesting in the extreme as it seems to be replacing the old Xbox live argument

That a shitty excuse for dismissing people's arguments without attempting to address them.

I'm still a gold member on my 360, and will be buying a PS4 instead of Xbox One.

Please explain how the DRM issues have replaced the old Xbox Live argument in my case.

 

[brasnial]

That a shitty excuse for dismissing people's arguments without attempting to address them.
I'm still a gold member on my 360, and will be buying a PS4 instead of Xbox One.

Please explain how the DRM issues have replaced the old Xbox Live argument in my case. )

I can't answer that you see I will be buying both because I don't have a issue with ether Sony or Microsoft's business policies ......I'll game on both personally i'd prefer a unified platform ......where I could switch between pc......Nintendo ......Sony .....and Microsoft's ego systems .......but that's a few years off yet .....but hopefully I'll see it in my life time .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can.....we........please .........tone down the........use.....of full-stops and........smilies .......???

Spoiler

 

[function]

This just keeps going around in circles. Why should anyone be against a system that could potentially be fair to all parties is beyond me.

You think that people are against it because it could potentially be fair to all parties?

People are against a system that they see as being highly likely to be unfair to at least one of the parties, and that party is them. That is why people are against it. This needs to be the starting point in your quest for comprehension.

The responsibility for this DRM mess we are faced with is shared equally between the companies and us the consumer.

How is stopping you lending or giving games freely sharing the burden? It's loading the burden onto one party because you think they'll either tolerate it or be too ignorant to know that they're getting dicked. MS's entire fuck up of a reveal is based entirely on the premise that people would put up with them taking additional steps that are NOT RELATED TO PIRACY or that they would be too ignorant to even comprehend what they are doing.

The fact that MS are still unwilling to clarify exactly what the system is and that they are still making smoke hoping people will just stop worrying indicates strongly that they were hoping for ignorance to be their ally in this endeavour. They still won't tell you exactly what it is they expect a customer to sink thousands of dollars into.

Ignorant consumers - they have no choice but to be ignorant as MS won't answer the questions they're being asked - are not a good thing for anyone other than the organisation that depends on ignorance to position itself in the bushes.

But how many of us didn't take advantage of that in some way form or fashion? How many downloaded or copied songs, movies or software without a cent going to the creator? If you are one of the few who hasn't then by all means you should feel free to protest the DRM policies we are now faced with. But I would venture to say that the vast majority of us have enjoyed in some way, form or fashion the loop holes in the system and taken advantage of same. And as with any system that doesn't try to be fair to everyone Peter will pay for Paul and Paul will pay for all.

Not all DRM is about preventing piracy. Some of Xbone's most controversial features are *not* related to controlling piracy.

If the MS DRM policy results in the creators getting money from every sale of their software I'm all for it. If it results in cheaper games I'm all for it. If to ensure the preceding all I have to do is have them check my XBOne every 24hrs then by all means check it. Because it's clear the present systems doesn't work for everyone and as long as that continues then we'll have to continue this painful dance we all helped to create.

We didn't help to create the "problem" of being able to sell something that we've bought or lend something that you own or being able to continue using something that you've bought and that you own. That's something that people have been doing for a long, long time.

All I want is to enjoy my games.

Kind of hard to enjoy a game you can't borrow or a game that has been deactivated and that isn't available anywhere.

 

[Sigfried1977]

I'm sorry to say this but most people would abuse a system that allows them too.......its not about believing everyone's a criminal its about not leaving a loop hole for people to abuse .

Semantics. Besides, I don't believe most people would abuse the system. (I don't know a single person who does, and I know a ton of gamers with PS3s) And even if they did, we're back to the old bullshit argument of every pirated game directly translating to a lost sale. This shit only ever hurts the people who are willing to pay. Pirates don't buy stuff, even if it's their only option. The music industry learned it the hard way. Let's see if the games industry will do the same.

 

[function]

I wouldn't call it a "we have no choice" group, I would call it the "technological progress" group

You are incorrectly conflating technological progress and all possible uses of that technology. You are saying that because a technology progresses, any possible use of that technology also represents progress.

The move to OELD tvs is a step in a line of technological progression. If I hit someone over the head with an OLED tv and then steal their wallet, that does not demonstrate technological progression, it simply demonstrates that fact that I'm bastard who feels entitled to things that aren't his.

 

[brasnial]

Semantics. Besides, I don't believe most people would abuse the system. (I don't know a single person who does, and I know a ton of gamers with PS3s) And even if they did, we're back to the old bullshit argument of every pirated game directly translating to a lost sale. This shit only ever hurts the people who are willing to pay. Pirates don't buy stuff, even if it's their only option. The music industry learned it the hard way. Let's see if the games industry will do the same.

OK you wouldn't but sadly your not everyone and as human beings we tend to stick with those who share our life outlook hence your confidence in your friends no abusing the system .

I personally don't share your confidence in human nature or views on pirated games ........

A person wanted a game so it had value to them but they didn't need to pay for it because they could pirate it ......

if they couldn't pirate said game they would have no choice but to go without or play for it ......now under those rules must would pay up ....after all the game had enough value to them for them to pirate it in the first place .

 

[Davros]

now under those rules must would pay up

No they wouldnt, there is absolutely no evidence to back that up. I bought a fake Tissot rock watch, if no fakes were available would I of bought a genuine one no....

 

[Npl]

Semantics. Besides, I don't believe most people would abuse the system. (I don't know a single person who does, and I know a ton of gamers with PS3s) And even if they did, we're back to the old bullshit argument of every pirated game directly translating to a lost sale. This shit only ever hurts the people who are willing to pay. Pirates don't buy stuff, even if it's their only option. The music industry learned it the hard way. Let's see if the games industry will do the same.

To me theres a clear trend, and I know alot people without pirated PS3 games, and even more that had barely 1 original on PS2/PS1.
There is a clear relation of the ratio of copys/originals and the difficulty of using said copies. You simply cant ignore the huge amount of people willing to take the easy way - if its easy enough.
And yes, the potential pirates will turn out some money if this is the only or by far easier solution, albeit only for a fraction of the games could they pirate them. And looking on PC, there is overwhelming piracy.

Personally I think systems like PS3 are practically the turning point where piracy is hard enough to get most people investing for a software library they can keep. The rest will try to pirate whatever is done to stop them and just never buy games. Going harder on people with digital downloads and DRM will just piss of potential buyers and wont generate additional sales.

 

[bkilian]

You can run a successful business without pissing everyone off, even on a large scale. I'm not expecting them to act like saints here. Heck, you could at least pretend to care about consumer needs and demands.

And providing a DRM scheme significantly more consumer friendly than Steam is not caring about consumer needs and demands? I think consumers can care about their needs and demands just fine. The company is putting forward a product, and the consumers can decide if it provides enough value to them that they want to buy it. So are people complaining because they think Microsoft will fail? Or are they complaining because they suspect Microsoft might succeed?
I suspect the latter. I think the hardcore are worried the console will succeed and their particular demands will be marginalized in future generations.

In my case, I don't like the DRM scheme, but it has enough consumer provisions in it that I don't find it too onerous, and it won't be a barrier to my purchasing the box at some point. right now what's holding me back is the price, and that indications are it won't work well with my Tivo.

The truth is I'm surprised Microsoft just didn't go all digital this time

They wanted to.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

My biggest issue with the Xbox One is that it won't be released in South Africa, not initially at least.

Then there's the 'always on' and DRM things that MS are introducing. 'tsk tsk'

I haven't had any of the consoles generations from MS or Sony however I have decided that this generation I will get one.

At this moment in time it looks like Sony is going to get my money.

 

[Arwin]

Someone made a joke that The Witcher III devs wouldn't be able to play their own game in their own country, because even if they buy a copy, they can't validate it - no server available. So you can't even import. If true of course.

 

[ERP]

Someone made a joke that The Witcher III devs wouldn't be able to play their own game in their own country, because even if they buy a copy, they can't validate it - no server available. So you can't even import. If true of course.

It is what it is.
When PS3/Xbox360 were first announced to developers, there was a team at EA where the lead engineer couldn't get access to the documentation because the country he was from wasn't listed in the legal agreement.