XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by mrcorbo, May 31, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. woundingchaney

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    As a pc gamer I personally don't see the problem with these drm trends or hampering the second hand sales market. It has been like this in the pc realm for quite some time and a considerable benefit from it is the cost of pc titles. Pc game sales and discounts are considerably higher and more frequent than their console counterparts (granted the royalties aren't as high), additionally a pc title will drop in price much sooner than its console counter part.

    Now if it is more of an issue of consumer rights, then I am inclined to agree. Though when games went up to 60usd per title nearly every gamer cringed. Surely we have to admit that piracy and the second hand game market have at least had some affect on the increasing cost of titles. Ultimately I would like to see some middle ground to ensure consumer rights as well as benefit the gaming industry, but honestly at this point there doesn't seem to be much common ground that isn't being readily taken advantage of by one side or the other.
     
  2. MfA

    MfA
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    7,155
    Likes Received:
    586
    Without a microcontroller in the disc this is vulnerable to hacks of the drive, professional counterfeits of the discs, requires disc in drive and doesn't allow you to limit installs (ie. unrestricted second hand sales).

    A microcontroller in the disc could put a stop to all of that, but seems a bit fancy compared to simply requiring online activation.
     
  3. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,607
    Likes Received:
    1,418
    Caps dont seem an issue mine is 250GB (I think). I'm on net 24/7 and only use 50-80GB per month typically I think.

    The people who have to worry about that are bittorrent pirates who max their connections with torrents of stuff they never watch 24/7 and nobody else.

    Plus even when you go over I think you get multiple months of warnings first before they even do anything. It's really reasonable as constituted, eg to cut out the extreme pirates, not as an extra revenue source on normal users. (But I think we need to be vigilant it doesn't turn into the latter, so far so good)
     
  4. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,607
    Likes Received:
    1,418
    I guess I'm weird but I want MS to stick to their guns on all this stuff lol.

    Like, I want them to be always online, restrict (really just take a cut of) used sales, etc.

    Might as well try something different, it can probably be a forward thinking market advantage over Sony, and it does not affect me since I rarely buy used games.

    Especially the watered down "once every 24hrs" always online thing. At that point it's really just no issue at all. If an asteroid ever hit and I actually lost internet for +24 hours, I can always just use PDA net (free tethering app for non rooted phones) to make a wi fi hotspot of my phone to check in. It's not like my 360 hasn't sat connected to the internet for the last 7 years anyway, just like everybody elses.

    So when I see GAF threads like "Major Nelson says we're listening" I'm like nooo stick to your guns lol.
     
  5. warb

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,057
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    UK
    I thought the clarification was there is no extra fee directly to customers for used games, but you can sell used games at least, somehow.
     
  6. upnorthsox

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,102
    Likes Received:
    378
    Link?
     
  7. -tkf-

    Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,633
    Likes Received:
    37
    This is your suggestion:

    so obviously you would accept the solution below, which means that you are ok with it, which is cool but not necessarily anyone else :)
    I already paid the money to play the game, why do i have to be online to enjoy the purchase i paid for, why should i do anything else but just press play. No matter how you bend this, it's online activation and build in time bomb for your purchase. My son couldn't borrow this game neither could my friends, it's anything
    but sensible. It's just like DD's except the Disc can be used as activation.

    Except for the above, my basic right to my purchased good which every consumer in the world should defend.
     
  8. warb

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,057
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    UK
    It's on the Eurogamer.net front page. I can't post a link.
     
  9. Jedi2016

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    I imagine it would work the same way it does now. You can install the game and run it off HDD, but it will need the disc in the drive as "verification" that it's legit.

    I always took this as being marketing talk. At the time they said that, the idea was that the person would have to just purchase the game in its entirety, at full price. Technically, that's not a "fee", so they can get away with saying "we're not going to charge a fee".

    The way I understand their system now (based on rumor and conjecture), is that they will absolutely charge a fee to transfer licenses.. no way in hell they're going to just do it for free without taking a cut of the money that's moving through their system. And to cover the new download bandwidth for the second title, etc.
     
  10. upnorthsox

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,102
    Likes Received:
    378
    Do you mean this?

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-xbox-one-game-trade-ins-will-work-apparently

    I don't see how that can honestly be claimed as activation fee free for consumers and I don't even see that scheme holding up by the retailers who will move as fast as humanly possible to disguising that activation tax until you get to the register.

    Except that publishers are not aware of this. I'm sure they'll take the money if MS offers it but the lack of collaboration on this indicates that the only publisher who can expect to see a cut is MS.
     
  11. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,947
    Likes Received:
    2,690
    As I've said multiple times it's about how such a system effects the ways I actually interact with the media. Last gen's DRM enforced restrictions on how you used your purchased goods, too. Yet you seem willing to tolerate those restrictions going forward. Those restrictions bother me, though, as they prevent me from being able to access my media in the way I would prefer. The new model works better for me because the things it allows for are things I want and the things it restricts are things I don't care about.

    That's why I've been pushing people in this thread to point out specific use cases. There are multiple threads on this board already discussing principles and consumer rights WRT DRM. I am hoping that this discussion can actually be an objective discussion of how different use cases are prevented/allowed by different DRM schemes and arrive at a system that maybe not everyone loves, but at least most people can live with.

    You may remember I was no fan of BluRay's DRM as it did (for a time anyway) prevent me from consuming the media I purchased in the manner I preferred. And yet those restrictions didn't bother you and you preferred BluRay because accepting its more restrictive DRM allowed you to have access to your preferred experience.

    You're 0 for 2.

    In the system I suggested, the only times the console would have to be online is when you install a disk-based game, when you try to play a disk-based game without the game disk in the drive and if you want to allow someone else to install the game.

    Why wouldn't you be able to lend the game to anyone you wanted? They install the game it gets deactivated for your console and account and activated for theirs.
     
    #71 mrcorbo, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  12. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    2,878
    Location:
    Alma, AR
    You mean _publisher_, singular, right? Because I've only seen one comment from one publisher chairman that that said that if Microsoft found a way to tax used games, then they should get a cut too.

    Tommy McClain
     
  13. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Location:
    Treading Water
    And nothing he said is really clear as to what he knows. He merely said publishers deserve a cut, he could be under NDA.

    These forums have become awesome for vague quotes being taken to existential levels of meaning.
     
  14. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    11,152
    Likes Received:
    2,216
    I know right , why should I have to be online to play candy crush. I should be able to play without a connection to the web.

    If your son is on your family account he can play the game as much as he wants as long as your not playing it at the same time. Its no different than it is now with a disc.

    As for friends , I've been gaming on pc for a long time and since the late 90s when they started tying games to a cd key , I haven't felt the loss of lending to a friend.
     
  15. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,947
    Likes Received:
    2,690
    I'd expect an activation fee would affect trade-in values more than anything and I think the lack of communication with 3rd parties and the conflicting infromation being presented to the media indicates MS are still unsure of what they are going to do.
     
  16. upnorthsox

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,102
    Likes Received:
    378
    You mean like a billion dollars in game development and over 200GB of bandwidth, yea alot of that going around.
     
  17. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,992
    Sorry it's just that I think "you'll have to learn to live with DD" is condescending. It's just YOUR preference, and a large part of the population doesn't have the same preference as you do. Both will continue to coexist, like all other media, as long as there's a market for it.

    The flaw in your method is that it still doesn't provide ownership, they are dependent on a remote server, the ongoing maintenance and security of these servers, and the good will of the company which WILL pull the plug eventually (if you doubt any of these points are impactful, look up Microsoft music DRM servers, or the mess they did with Danger Hiptop in 2009, or Sony being hacked and had extreme downtime). It can only be considered long term renting, but legally they don't have to keep your games working beyond the warranty period. It has a remote kill switch. It's a "planned obsolescence" implementation. It also becomes the biggest hacking and DDoS target in the history of gaming (imo), making at least some downtime a real possibility. I won't have any of this.

    Music:
    In the early days, Apple, Sony and Microsoft were selling DRM music in encrypted AAC, ATRAC and WMA. It needed a server connection to move you files around (which is what you're proposing for games). We started a campaign against that, I fought for this and I'm very proud of what we accomplished. We killed it, and now we enjoy non-DRM music everywhere.

    Even then, after all this time, people like me can still buy CDs. Download version are becoming much more popular, but that wouldn't have happened with a DRM'd format. Still every single one of my albums are available on CD.

    Movies:

    In the early days of DVD, there was an attempt at creating a DRM format called DIVX, which needed a phone line to give you permission to do what you want with your purchase. Once again, we fought it, and we won.

    Renting physical films basically died, it's obsolete because we have streaming services like netflix. Physical media ownership didn't die. Bluray sales are still rising 2011 to 2012, new releases are $30 and they still sell like crazy. The "ownership" sales are collectors, and they aren't going anywhere in the DD realm. Who the heck would buy films on the playstation store? We only rent them, because online DRM means no ownership, it's a short term consumption which works extremely great for renting, but not buying.

    Ultraviolet is about to become the best of both worlds. Collectors buy a bluray at a high price, and it comes with an Ultraviolet code. People like you who prefer DD exclusively, will only buy the Ultraviolet version, no clutter. We all get what we want, and I strongly support this because it's studio agnostic and hardware agnostic, just like the bluray forum.

    eBooks:

    Tor Books released their eBooks in non-DRM format, and their sales went UP. I'm glad we have a good guy in this field, and we favor their books. This is an ongoing battle but we're about to win.
    I will still be able to buy all my books in hard cover for a long long time (which I do). eBooks are not killing books, they will continue to be a preference.

    Games:

    We fought them all, and this games DRM is just another one of those.
    You prefer DD, you buy DD.
    I prefer media, I buy media.

    That is what Sony did with the Vita, and that's what they clearly said they'll do with PS4. Giving these choices, we're all happy!
    I want them to do the same thing as Ultraviolet. Give a code for the DD version with the physical media, and sell it at a higher price. We'll buy it. Then, we all get what we want.

    Sony is doing this with the latest Sly Cooper game. You buy the PS3 version, and it comes with the DD version for Vita, which only works for the first time owner. They can do the same scheme but instead of the Vita version it could give you the DD version of the same game.
    Like when you buy a bluray and it comes with a DVD too.
    Or a 3D bluray and it also has the 2D version.
    Or a bluray and it comes with an Ultraviolet code.
     
    #77 MrFox, Jun 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2013
  18. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    11,152
    Likes Received:
    2,216
    I'm not following you

    Music - Yes DRM free music exists but the masses are moving towards streaming music ala iheartradio , spoitify , Pandora . Infact some song just beat a record by using the amount of times it was streamed as purchases.

    Movies - Bluray is still a fraction of what dvd was back in the day. DRM schemes like xbox or amazon prime or movies on google play / psn and the likes are all a step back to drm. So you didn't win anything there as even ultra violet has drm on the downloaded copies

    ebooks - amazon and nook are getting a bigger and bigger piece of the pie squeezing out things like tor . Both feature DRM

    Games - The biggest ways to get pc games are all filled with DRM . Consoles have had DRM games since the last generation.


    You need to send me a pair of the rose color glasses you've been using cause I see us moving more towards a constant subscription based world and DD only world .
     
  19. AlphaWolf

    AlphaWolf Specious Misanthrope
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Messages:
    9,074
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Location:
    Treading Water
    That's a somewhat vague quote, how are you interpreting it?
     
  20. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,488
    Likes Received:
    5,992
    I can't explain it better if you can't take more than 5 minutes to read my posts, and read up on the history which I'm talking about.

    Think about the difference between renting and buying, and how they always existed in parallel throughout the history of all these media. And that online DRM for ownership didn't work. It only works for renting or live streaming.
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...