XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You
- Thread starter mrcorbo
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I don't see how you could facillitate the ability to totally play off a harddrive without some form of online DRM. MS or Sony could just make it easier on themselves if they just allowed bypassing of an online check if a disc is present in the hardware. It accommodates both offline and online modes.
Trying to stop used games sales using online DRM is a wasted exercise. DD will become feasible enough that a significant portion of the userbase won't even bother with buying BluRay version of games. Plus a Stream model will encourage people away from buying used titles. Physical distribution only works well for launches and a few months after. Its inflexibility shows the moment you move past that time period. DD allows you to move quickly up and down a price range and accommodates the cheap distribution of older titles.
I think MS's desire for a 24 hour online check is motivated by its desire to monitor for modification of the hardware or firmware. If you are forced to connected to the internet, you aren't likely to modify your console without a really efficient way to convert back. But once DD becomes widely feasible, physical distribution can be dropped and monitoring for console modding will be relatively easy.
Once you remove the need of DRM to artifically limited functionality, console gamers won't really care. You wouldn't be gaming on a console if you did especially online and definitely not with a 360 or a PS3.
A rent model policy can be instituted with MS and Sony providing titles that locks out the ability to play off the HDD without a physical disk present. Meaning even if you are online the hardware will require that the rented disk be in the console.
MS and Sony just need to sit back and be patience and let the future take hold.
Trying to stop used games sales using online DRM is a wasted exercise. DD will become feasible enough that a significant portion of the userbase won't even bother with buying BluRay version of games. Plus a Stream model will encourage people away from buying used titles. Physical distribution only works well for launches and a few months after. Its inflexibility shows the moment you move past that time period. DD allows you to move quickly up and down a price range and accommodates the cheap distribution of older titles.
I think MS's desire for a 24 hour online check is motivated by its desire to monitor for modification of the hardware or firmware. If you are forced to connected to the internet, you aren't likely to modify your console without a really efficient way to convert back. But once DD becomes widely feasible, physical distribution can be dropped and monitoring for console modding will be relatively easy.
Once you remove the need of DRM to artifically limited functionality, console gamers won't really care. You wouldn't be gaming on a console if you did especially online and definitely not with a 360 or a PS3.
A rent model policy can be instituted with MS and Sony providing titles that locks out the ability to play off the HDD without a physical disk present. Meaning even if you are online the hardware will require that the rented disk be in the console.
MS and Sony just need to sit back and be patience and let the future take hold.
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A system which led to:
- Online passes
- Publishers feeling the need to contrive some form of online multiplayer functionality for their games when it not only didn't improve the overall experience but often detracted from it since it diverted resources from the development of the single-player experience.
- No full disc installs for PS3 and mandatory disk-checks for full installs on the 360.
I think there's room for improvement.
my opinion is I am done with discs, could not care less if they disappeared...
I am used to digital content on my ecosystem, phone Computer etc and now Game console..
I can see why for some people "sharing discs" is important to them and not having to keep a disc in the tray to play is important to me..
equating this with some consumer rights thing is understandable to a point but let's be honest... most of the point of this (if true) protocol is to prevent more than one person playing a game that was only purchased ONCE by more than one person at a time; while not having to keep a disc in tray.
There has to be a middle ground... eventually all discs will most likely be gone forever and this is the first step.
Talking to some teenagers I am finding that their big deal is how to buy one game and have as many people play it as possible, it's all about getting it for free or scamming the system or some corporation who "can afford it". Why in the world would I care if MS or Sony or a dev is protecting his work from being stolen when I'd rather the teenagers learn how to make more money and work hard to earn enough to support the hobby they have chosen.
the fact that I can share my game in my house with my kids if I want is a great deal and trading in discs and MS giving trade value for digital content on Xbox is a great deal, all things which are positives in this "Potential" DRM scheme being floated...
that being said, I'm sure they will find a good middle ground for all this where most (but not all) people can live with it. as I told my young teenagers I was speaking with... the old school gaming system that you pack up in your backpack and take with you days are over... the model is dead... portable gaming has killed it... this is the new model, change with the times
I am used to digital content on my ecosystem, phone Computer etc and now Game console..
I can see why for some people "sharing discs" is important to them and not having to keep a disc in the tray to play is important to me..
equating this with some consumer rights thing is understandable to a point but let's be honest... most of the point of this (if true) protocol is to prevent more than one person playing a game that was only purchased ONCE by more than one person at a time; while not having to keep a disc in tray.
There has to be a middle ground... eventually all discs will most likely be gone forever and this is the first step.
Talking to some teenagers I am finding that their big deal is how to buy one game and have as many people play it as possible, it's all about getting it for free or scamming the system or some corporation who "can afford it". Why in the world would I care if MS or Sony or a dev is protecting his work from being stolen when I'd rather the teenagers learn how to make more money and work hard to earn enough to support the hobby they have chosen.
the fact that I can share my game in my house with my kids if I want is a great deal and trading in discs and MS giving trade value for digital content on Xbox is a great deal, all things which are positives in this "Potential" DRM scheme being floated...
that being said, I'm sure they will find a good middle ground for all this where most (but not all) people can live with it. as I told my young teenagers I was speaking with... the old school gaming system that you pack up in your backpack and take with you days are over... the model is dead... portable gaming has killed it... this is the new model, change with the times
I'll take today's "need the disc inserted" DRM over pure digital. I want to own my goods, that means give them away, sell them, and lend the. I don't buy Kindle books much anymore for the same reason. I pay the same amount for a DD version which I can rarely lend and never gift or sell.
I bought one $60 retail game via the PSN this gen and have kicked myself ever since.
I bought one $60 retail game via the PSN this gen and have kicked myself ever since.
I'd take online required to play a game over having to find the disk every time, for convenience factor alone, but I have a lot of disks and rarely put them away.
I actually recently bought a direct download version of a Vita game I already own on disc because I hate looking for the discs.
And FWIW I don't know what Sonys plan is in this regard.
I actually recently bought a direct download version of a Vita game I already own on disc because I hate looking for the discs.
And FWIW I don't know what Sonys plan is in this regard.
You're either going to have to learn to live with DD or accept that there's a very limited shelf life on your continued ability to enjoy gaming as a hobby. Disks are going away as a distribution method for content in every medium including games.
upnorthsox
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Bagel seed
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If Sony is no online required at all is true, then that rules out HDD game installs. Bummer. That would pretty much force my hand in going digital purchases if true. But with discounts and free stuff from PS+ I guess it wouldn't feel too bad.
This condescending argument with fake vision of the future has become legendary. I had the EXACT same discussion in 2006. Fast forward to 2013 and every single one of you have been completely wrong about bluray. Yeah, but you watch! In a few years it's all gone! This time for sure!
Looking back in 2006, when people were saying (for some reason at the time it was xbox gamers saying that all over the net) it's 100% sure that ALL consoles in 2012 would be download only. It sounded exactly like you do now. All three have a bluray drive. Next gen, Sony announced that all games would be available day 1 digital. It's the best of both worlds, people like you who consume media in an ephemeral fashion are happy to save a few bucks and buy the download only version, and people like me will buy the disc.
The Vita system is almost perfect. All AAA games are equally available in either carts or download. All they have to change is to allow a disc owner to play discless through online DRM. The Disc would have more rights, more convenience, but it would cost more. Everybody wins. What's not to like? Please try to poke holes in this.
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upnorthsox
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Register and no disc or disc insert needed installs are certainly possible for both consoles and could still maintain Sony's no internet needed position.
Bagel seed
Veteran
I wonder if we'll see a lot of disc insert needed with installs? Partial auto installation must be a standard thing at this point. Especially seeing as how MS has already gone full installs. Theoretically if the disc can be counted on being there they could stream data from both sources. Though I'm not sure if that is a big advantage. Convenience wise it wouldn't make a difference to me and would still go digital.
Register and no disc would still probably mean a ping back to authorize each time though. Otherwise that messes up the used game situation. Of course, if they do unlock fees..
Register and no disc would still probably mean a ping back to authorize each time though. Otherwise that messes up the used game situation. Of course, if they do unlock fees..
upnorthsox
Veteran
Its also clear that top publishers have not been brought into MS's confidence on their plans. IF MS goes thru with this (and I believe they could walk this back with their tail betwix their legs) then the chit storm by gamers over this will be nothing compared to the chit storm by publishers if they aren't cut into the deal or worse, have MS playing favoritism with it.
I don't see how I am being condescending. I'm just extrapolating from current trends.
Music
Movies
A quick Google search found these and there's more examples if you need them. Feel free to find your own data to contradict mine.
It's not about saving a few bucks. It's about convenience for most and for me and others it's also about having less clutter.
Game installs to hard drive are happening (on both XBOne and PS4) for performance reasons. Given this necessity, the only way you can prevent multiple people from having simultaneous access to a game with a single disk purchase (something that isn't allowed on current systems either) is to have some form of online validation. The method I suggested in my OP seems to reasonably cover all use cases except for people who never have access to the internet from their console. So I repeat, what's wrong with it? What specific use case for you does it prevent?
I do not know if this has been posted, but Amir0x of neogaf claims that no internet connection will be required to play AT ALL (for the ps4):
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=572949
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=572949
I'll be curious to see if this means that:
- They always require the disk to be inserted to play a disk-based game
- They have another way to close the obvious loophole not having online activation creates
- They are just going to leave the loophole open and deal with the consequences like they did with game sharing.
I believe sony already said it was up to the devs on what they wanted to do. Which to me means that yea you don't need to be online to play the ps4 but all non sony games will require you to be online to play since the publishers make the final choice.
Anyway if you need to keep a disk in the system to play the game there goes the instant loading of games. If I gotta get up and walk across the room that is kind of a deal breaker on the same level as cross game chat / invites were with psn at the start.
Lets also not forget in a DD world many people will not have access to the games they want when they want them. Besides the fact that downloading a 10GB game will take a considerable amount of time, ISP's have been cracking down on the bandwidth they provide to their customers as well. Imagine hitting your ISP's cap in three days because you bought 2 games and streamed a few movies!
Also this idea that Tablet/Phone/Ipad/Iphone games can equate to Consoles is borderline asinine! Most games for these devices are 1/10 the cost and 1/20th the size for download. Trust me if people had to pay 50-60 for a game on their tablet and had to download a 10GB file to play it people wouldn't be so "gun-ho" about buying them.
Also this idea that Tablet/Phone/Ipad/Iphone games can equate to Consoles is borderline asinine! Most games for these devices are 1/10 the cost and 1/20th the size for download. Trust me if people had to pay 50-60 for a game on their tablet and had to download a 10GB file to play it people wouldn't be so "gun-ho" about buying them.
You're talking about convenience ? You're wrong. DD is more convenient. You're watching Champions League, at halftime you see a commercial for Fifa 2014, which is more convenient:
1. Turn on your console, purchase Fifa 2014, the download starts, you go make popcorn and get more beer from the fridge, then watch the second half. When the match is done you fire Fifa 2014 up.
2. Jump into your car, drive to the mall, rush into GameStop, buy Fifa 2014, drive back in time for the post game analysis (nevermind the fact that GameStop is closed when CL is on).
You don't need to download the game, but you'll need to activate it online. Found this regarding bandwidth caps. AFAICT it won't be game purchases that busts your bandwidth cap.
You pay less, you get less; Final Fantasy III (yes 3 !) is $15.99.
People pays $40 for PS Vita games without flinching.
And another thing: The real reason to force people online is not to end second hand sales, it is to clamp down on piracy. Both PS3 and the 360 had massive problems.
Cheers
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