XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[pc999]

Funny it can get even worst.

Only MS makes money of this

Publishers should share in potential used game fees

http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/30/4381614/take-two-chairman-on-used-games

 

[AzBat]

He said _IF_. Sounds like a what-if scenario & like he hasn't been included in the back room dealings. Reading is fundamental.

Tommy McClain

 

[pc999]

He said _IF_. Sounds like a what-if scenario & like he hasn't been included in the back room dealings. Reading is fundamental.

Tommy McClain

Sounds more like IF MS is going to do it (tax used games) is not planing to include them.

It also makes sense, otherwise why would he say such a thing.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Because he doesn't know, or is under NDA.

 

[eastmen]

I like the system MS is developing vs what both sony and ms had last gen.


I don't care for codes and season passes which are all forms of DRM. I also don't want to always have a disc in my drive. I much rather be able to just either download the game ala steam or buy a disc and install it once and be done with it.

For a whim I have dead island for the xbox 360 and i'm offered $7 bucks for it. I don't think its that old of a game. So to me used games are really ont worth it aside from gems I must have missed when they first came out. With real online stores though I don't need to buy used , I can buy new all the time

 

[-tkf-]

"This is intended to start a discussion of how you think a secure DRM could be implemented that both protects the content creator and preserves the maximum freedom of use for the end user."

The DRM that we had in PS3 and XBOX 360, reimplement that.

 

[BRiT]

*ahem*

Keep the moralizing and philosophizing about the evils of DRM out of this thread. There is already a thread in a more appropriate subforum covering that topic: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=56592

 

[Dregun]

I'm sorry that I don't remember where I heard this from, but it makes a lot of sense.

Back in the early 90's it was the rental companies costing publishers money, then they moved onto the evil pirates in the mid to late 90's as the reason for poor sales and now it's the Used Game market that is costing them money. --paraphrased from someplace

Now we can look at the PC side and see that neither anti-piracy nor DD (Steam) have the effect that PC developers were hoping for. It would seem the only uptick in PC game sales lately has been because the overdue release of next gen consoles otherwise they have been on a steady decline..

I will reiterate a idea I had a few years ago again, if Sony and MS want to help developers get a cut of the used game market then both MS and Sony need to develop their own used game business to compete with places such as GameStop and give the consumers a reason to choose them over GameStop They already have the infrastructure in place to allow people to "deactivate" games from playing on their perspective consoles if they want. Allow those same games to be purchased again as a direct download and activated on a different console and collect the appropriate monies to do so.

No excuses for lazy, burdening DRM when they have everything they need to provide the service better than anyone else. I mean how much better would it be to just log into Live or PS Store and say "Sell Game" and have them offer a certain amount of "credit" for the game and once it's done the "Disc" is a coaster sitting in your tray. Don't even have to leave your house to sell your game, don't have to leave your house to buy and almost instantly play a used game. Maybe this way certain developers would see how many people believe their game is not worth keeping and would do more to fix such issues in the future.

 

[AzBat]

Sounds more like IF MS is going to do it (tax used games) is not planing to include them.

It also makes sense, otherwise why would he say such a thing.

Maybe because it was how the reporter posed the question? Why does there always have to be some nefarious agenda?

Because he doesn't know, or is under NDA.

That too.

I'm with eastmen on DRM. I want the ability to install from disc to the hard drive & not need it anymore. Last gen sucked in that regard. Season passes & exclusive DLC content per retailer sucked too. I don't want to see that again. EA's new policy gives me hope, but it will probably come at a cost. Would anybody be interested in a digital rental system? I'd prefer that over Gamefly & Redbox. I just don't a return to last gen's DRM. Good riddance.

Tommy McClain

 

[SMOKE]

I don't see the point right now. It's not something that has been officially announced. Why have a hissy fit now? When things are announced you can still make your voice heard with your Twitter campaign & by also not pre-ordering the offending system & pre-ordering the system that supports your cause. Why spend expend all that energy when you don't know what they're going to do?

One other point, who here believes that Sony & Microsoft will have totally different DRM mechanisms? I believe a lot of this was already decided & both companies will be using a similar system. IMHO It's going to take a lot more than a very vocal group making posts on Twitter to change business agreements already in place. Money talks.

Tommy McClain

Why is it your business to care about what we complain about?

Take your own advice and if you dont like complaints or complaint threads then stay our of them. You're just antagonizing the situation even more with each post I read from you like you get off on this type of stuff. We care about our gaming systems and how we buy and manage our games. If one system gets away with it then its alright for others to do the same and it all goes downhill from there.

Like I said, if you dont care or are bothered with how we are handling this situation, then leave these type of threads alone and ignore them. THats also an option!

I'm here to figure whats this all about as I stated before that my kids and their friends are xbox players and I would love for that to continue on many levels through the used game market like I have been doin so far.I havent seen a credible post that constructively lays out all the possibilities good or bad.

 

[phil-t]

I'm here to figure whats this all about as I stated before that my kids and their friends are xbox players and I would love for that to continue on many levels through the used game market like I have been doin so far.I havent seen a credible post that constructively lays out all the possibilities good or bad.

MS haven't explicitly laid out the policies yet, you know this, you know the myriad of contradictory (and still vague) post reveal interviews, so no one can give you a credible post that lays out all the possibilities, since there are so many hypothetical situations to cover.

The only sensible option is to wait until MS (and Sony) do layout their policies in plain simple terms.. That should be between now and E3..

You seem to be out for an argument, where as most sensible people know that they don't know enough and sit here patiently waiting..

I can suggest DRM schemes that would 'work' in balancing consumer rights with publishers needs, but what's the point? I don't make MS or Sony's policies.

 

[AzBat]

Why is it your business to care about what we complain about?

Because MrFox explicitly asked some of the "Xbox gaming crowd" why we were not proactively supporting the NoDRM movement.

MS haven't explicitly laid out the policies yet, you know this, you know the myriad of contradictory (and still vague) post reveal interviews, so no one can give you a credible post that lays out all the possibilities, since there are so many hypothetical situations to cover.

The only sensible option is to wait until MS (and Sony) do layout their policies in plain simple terms.. That should be between now and E3..

You seem to be out for an argument, where as most sensible people know that they don't know enough and sit here patiently waiting..

I can suggest DRM schemes that would 'work' in balancing consumer rights with publishers needs, but what's the point? I don't make MS or Sony's policies.

+1

Tommy McClain

 

[Gubbi]

Why is it your business to care about what we complain about?

Why is it your business to care about what Tommy complains about ?

Take your own advice and if you dont like complaints or complaint threads then stay our of them.

This thread isn't a complaints thread. It is an attempt to have a constructive debate about DRM wrt. games on next gen. consoles.

So take your own advice....

Wrt. DRM:
People already accept they don't have any ability to sell software bought on Steam, D2D, GoG, Google Play or the App Store. Why should console games be different?

The console vendors are now at a point where they can control access to games centrally because the vast majority of consoles are connected to the internet or can be mandated to be connected to the internet.

So, why is that a good thing ?

Currently the revenue from second hand sales ends up in GS, where it really ought to end up with the publishers and the studios that produced the games in the first place. Controlling second hand sales means a combination of: fewer dead studios, better games, cheaper games or the evil publishers lining their pockets with the extra cash.

Cheers

 

[MrFox]

Gamestop's revenues are something like 90% used game sales. They can make $1000 selling one game 20 times, the publisher will get $10-$20 of that. It needs to change if you want games with 8 digit budgets.

Think up a system that gives publishers a fair amount of the profit that doesn't involve DRM. Go.

That's a fallacious argument, it implies we must accept the money isn't legitimate to begin with.

I can think of a system... ask your local government to make used games illegal if you think GameStop owe them anything, because from your argument they're stealing money from someone's IP. I think in Europe the exact opposite happened.

I can think of another system... publishers should start used games reseller stores to compete fairly against GameStop, and give better prices. If it's as lucrative as your made up numbers illustrate, free market should work it's magic.

But my favorite system... disc-as-key allows ownership, and consumer accept to pay 60 under that premise, but many wouldn't otherwise (the proof is the million of us in the NoDRM campaign). Use online DRM only as a copy protection for either disc-less distribution and installation, or noCD playing. Sell disc versions for $60, and sell DRM download version between $40 or $50.

Regardless of all this, I expect both to have a system which allow renting games directly from the store, just like renting a film. The one hour trials on Playstation Plus does that already, so I'm pretty sure Sony will push it a step further. Online DRM is perfect for that.

I'm more and more optimistic, and I expect my favorite system to make the cut, probably on both consoles.

 

[MrFox]

Because MrFox explicitly asked some of the "Xbox gaming crowd" why we were not proactively supporting the NoDRM movement

Yes, thank you, to be honest I just wanted to know why there seemed to be a disconnect, and I was teasing a bit to see if that split was real or if I was simply imagining it. This is anecdotal, but I have many good friends who are die hard 360 fans, and they also don't care about the NoDRM campaign.

So the result of my findings, which seems to correlates with my own circle, and with B3D, GAF, IGN, and Twitter comments:
On average, Xbox gamers argument is "Who are you to tell them what they should do, get back in line. You can't change their mind. I welcome this new system, it's good for the publishers. They have no choice."
On average, Playstation gamers argument is "You're about make a big miscalculation, we'll only remain loyal if you continue to give us what we want to buy. You'll lose money. We won't have any of this. It's bad for everybody."

Publishers will have to think long and hard if they want to have the exact same DRM system on both consoles, the market is definitely very different. What will make the most money on one platform won't be the same as on the other.

 

[dumbo11]

Currently the revenue from second hand sales ends up in GS, where it really ought to end up with the publishers and the studios that produced the games in the first place. Controlling second hand sales means a combination of: fewer dead studios, better games, cheaper games or the evil publishers lining their pockets with the extra cash.

Cheers

Well... hmmm. Should we send out predator drones to destroy libraries to maximize profits for book authors? .

A game is released today, and in <6 months that game is a budget title. That happens even on steam - it's simply that the title becomes 'old', and the advertising/hype ceases. After that point, the value of the title plummets to near zero, apart from the 'WEEKEND SALE' aspect.

To fight second-hand sales in a useful manner, IMHO a publisher simply needs to ensure that players don't want to sell their title within 6 months.

How do you do that?
- periodic, free DLC. Obviously that's a bit of a problem if the platform holders actively discourage this, along with their QA processes.
- paid, hyped, DLC. (or periodic content or whatever).
- make the game last >single digit hours.
- make a game genuinely replayable (random levels/whatever, less focus on rigid storyline).
- mods.
[etc]

Alternatively, bite the bullet and go with a "rent to buy" model.

Or, I guess, we can have a hal2000 watching us 24/7 to ensure that players don't hand the controller to unlicensed individual .

 

[Billy Idol]

My opinion: I don't mind the used game issue, don't consider selling my games or buying used games.

Furthermore, I don't mind DRM...as long as it is not annoying for the user, say you have to input a 20 digit number in a awful interface, or every game/publisher has an own system, needs an own account etc etc...

 

[Tap In]

You seem to be out for an argument, where as most sensible people know that they don't know enough and sit here patiently waiting..
.

exactly. most of us are here to shed light on things and are amused by the uncovering. Not trying to blast heat from our own little furnaces to melt things down like some posters here lately.

 

[AzBat]

Yes, thank you, to be honest I just wanted to know why there seemed to be a disconnect, and I was teasing a bit to see if that split was real or if I was simply imagining it. This is anecdotal, but I have many good friends who are die hard 360 fans, and they also don't care about the NoDRM campaign.

So the result of my findings, which seems to correlates with my own circle, and with B3D, GAF, IGN, and Twitter comments:
On average, Xbox gamers argument is "Who are you to tell them what they should do, get back in line. You can't change their mind. I welcome this new system, it's good for the publishers. They have no choice."
On average, Playstation gamers argument is "You're about make a big miscalculation, we'll only remain loyal if you continue to give us what we want to buy. You'll lose money. We won't have any of this. It's bad for everybody."

Publishers will have to think long and hard if they want to have the exact same DRM system on both consoles, the market is definitely very different. What will make the most money on one platform won't be the same as on the other.

You're welcome. I don't think you are imagining it. I think the hashtags show the disconnect: #PS4noDRM #PS4usedgames This was started by potential PS4 owners. With me being a Xbox owner I would never use those tags on Twitter, but that's even if I agreed. I guess I'm not really in either one of your camps. I just prefer to have more information. What MS has hinted at though makes me think it's not going to be a big deal _for_me. If it does, then I'll complain.

Tommy McClain

 

[Gubbi]

Well... hmmm. Should we send out predator drones to destroy libraries to maximize profits for book authors? .

Libraries pays copyright holders (at least they do here in Europe), so that would probably be a bad idea.

Cheers