XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[function]

Thanks for responding. I get fickleness of the public but whizzing through the the list of best selling 360 and PS3 games (most likely to be profitable), there don't look to be any major surprises of gameplay/genre. Mirror's Edge I'd definitely class as risky - I think it would have done much better if they'd designed it to be a £10 XBLA/PSN game on a smaller scale.

I find the 70% profit failure rate to be terrifying. I sincerely believe there are simply too many games out there for most people. I'd guess lots of gamers fall into the time-but-o-money or money-but-no-time camps with a few in the middle. Too many games trying to vie for too customers and anything not scoring a 7 on Eurogamer or 6 on EGDE isn't going to get a look for the most part.

Still, at least nobody mentioned piracy and DRM - getting back OT.

Publishers are gamblers that are addicted to big risk and big win. Anything that they see as increasing their chances of "winning" is something that they'll go for like a crack addict breaking into you house to steal shit to sell at the local pawn shop.

This is ably demonstrated by Xbone DRM - the tool that was supposed to stop the thieves down at Gamestop legally selling something they'd legally bought - now being used to hammer schoolkids that want to lend to lend or sell a game to their friends. Xbone DRM is entirely capable of handling private sales and lending, but this has been prevented as a carefully engineered business protectionism mechanism.

XBONEDrm.

 

[dagamer]

If only Microsoft didn't have to worry about retailers or used games, this would be so much simpler.

In any case, the only thing I care about is the fact that if companies really want to push digital distribution, they are going to need to care about the price they set for games instead of leaving them languishing on the store for $10-20 more than they really should be. I'd love to see games sell for $50 at launch, then $40 6 months later, then $30 after another 6 months, and $20 2 years after release and maybe some intermittent sales in between. My hope is if they are making money after every sale, they don't have to stick in idiotic micro transactions or forced multi-player into SP games.

One thing is certainly clear, once I started buying games digitally, whether its on Steam, Xbox Live, or PSN, I was most definitely buying more of them. It is FAR easier to click "Buy Now!" than it is to drive to GameStop or Walmart and get a game. It's one thing that puzzles mr why more 360/PS3 games aren't digital even now.

 

[bkilian]

Agreed, families come in all shapes and sizes. One way to deter abuse will probably be that the master account is the only one that can add 'points' to the account. If a child account wants to rent movies they need to already have points or have the master account grant them. Its a minor inconvenience but to have to ask a friend to always be adding points on your behalf would get annoying. Also, they will probably put restriction on how often an account can join or leave a family, like they do now for the defunct family plan.

That annoyance, and the fact that all the sub accounts in a family account were automatically children, so you would continuously get those stupid "one of the logged in accounts has restricted chat" stuff. And you could not get it to acknowledge that there may be more than one adult in a family. It was a completely broken system.
I'd be fine with a single charging account, as long as you could designate more than one account to be able to add points from it.

 

[Squilliam]

Well, one could always make games with campaigns that are more than just a 5 hour scripted cut scene and, hey, maybe worth more than 1 playthrough. Just a thought. Think it's been done though.

Maybe a lot of people like short intense single player games and for whatever reason don't want to spend 100 hours grinding or something similar in the few hours of the week they do get to sit down and play a game. Heavy Rain is an amazing game even if it is quite short.

That's more of an annoyance than anything else. My Xbox 360 automatically connects to the Internet when I play so it goes unnoticed.

Yet, grace periods would be welcome when you actually need to carry the console with you and an Internet connection is not granted.

The root of the problem is the DRM policies associated with this.

It's a shame I am starting to see where all those complaints about the Xbox One potentially becoming a snobbish club are coming from.

Americans have a very immature attitude towards the DRM policies. I wouldn't expect Tommy and RancidLunchMeat (and a few others) to complain much.

I remember reading a post which Tommy wrote a couple of days ago that he was *surprised* but he didn't go further with the appreciation.

The whole post sounded to me like he was saying that these DRM issues are taboo and inappropriate yet hip and cool. This is probably due to the fact that USA is still influenced from their past when they were a repressed puritan nation.

Like saying: "This might be wrong, but let's experiment, see what happens".

It is a system designed to suit the majority of people the vast majority of the time. The things it allows are better for the majority of people than the 'one disc, one license model'. The convenience for instance of being able to play any game you own anywhere far more than outweighs the inconvenience of a daily/hourly internet check.

The reason why people are pissed off.

1. They don't care they have to change discs so they don't feel any convenience there.
2. They don't like Microsoft/Xbox already because of Live Gold and paywalls (though it is cheap)
3. They like to trade games a lot.
4. They don't like being 'fired' as customers. They don't like the fact that Microsoft is saying they don't want them. The whole, I'm breaking up with YOU, YOU can't break up with me first.

The Xbox One as a system is designed for Joe and Jane average, not StArDeFeNDeR54. The DRM system suits the normal every day person. Microsoft began life in the console business supporting the latter person and ignoring the former but they've evolved essentially towards a position where Nintendo tried to position the Wii U at the juncture between core/casual and not hardcore/core.

 

[Nisaaru]

I find the 70% profit failure rate to be terrifying. I sincerely believe there are simply too many games out there for most people. I'd guess lots of gamers fall into the time-but-o-money or money-but-no-time camps with a few in the middle. Too many games trying to vie for too customers and anything not scoring a 7 on Eurogamer or 6 on EGDE isn't going to get a look for the most part.

Still, at least nobody mentioned piracy and DRM - getting back OT.

It's obvious to me that there's an overproduction crisis for games either because of the recession, too many companies producing too much stuff or the population range which would play is shrinking in the west/japan which is due to happen anyway. I don't think all this DRM crap will really help them survive this natural process. They'll need to shake the tree so the rotten apples fall out to clean the market. It's the nature of the game, pun intended.

 

[Cyan]

Maybe a lot of people like short intense single player games and for whatever reason don't want to spend 100 hours grinding or something similar in the few hours of the week they do get to sit down and play a game. Heavy Rain is an amazing game even if it is quite short.



It is a system designed to suit the majority of people the vast majority of the time. The things it allows are better for the majority of people than the 'one disc, one license model'. The convenience for instance of being able to play any game you own anywhere far more than outweighs the inconvenience of a daily/hourly internet check.

The reason why people are pissed off.

1. They don't care they have to change discs so they don't feel any convenience there.
2. They don't like Microsoft/Xbox already because of Live Gold and paywalls (though it is cheap)
3. They like to trade games a lot.
4. They don't like being 'fired' as customers. They don't like the fact that Microsoft is saying they don't want them. The whole, I'm breaking up with YOU, YOU can't break up with me first.

The Xbox One as a system is designed for Joe and Jane average, not StArDeFeNDeR54. The DRM system suits the normal every day person. Microsoft began life in the console business supporting the latter person and ignoring the former but they've evolved essentially towards a position where Nintendo tried to position the Wii U at the juncture between core/casual and not hardcore/core.

The problem with the system is more or less what DSoup is trying to describe. This DRM method is bodged. It still needs a LOT of refinement and refining, so to say. It is a hassle for your average Joe.

The way MS are handling some aspects of the userbase, authorized accounts, etc, doesn't seem that bad by the looks of it (in some ways).

But instead, DRM is always detrimental to legal users interests.

If anyone doubts that the pirates will be playing on the Xbox One without problems in less than two years, then they are very, very naïve.

 

[Strange]

I agree that it is probably not a rosy garden for developers, but last time I checked EA is making ~2.5 Billion per year. Activision around the 3 Billion dollar mark. Consumers are coughing up enough money alright, problem is probably where it's directed.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/ea/financials
http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/atvi/financials

Starting to look more and more like the drug industry.

 

[AlphaWolf]

It is a hassle for your average Joe.

Average Joe will probably never notice anything but extra conveniences.

But instead, DRM is always detrimental to legal users interests.

That's not exactly news, that is the point of DRM. So the owners of the IP can maintain control over it. It would be great if we could live in a world where it wasn't necessary, but there are just way too many assholes who ruin it for everyone.

If anyone doubts that the pirates will be playing on the Xbox One without problems in less than two years, then they are very, very naïve.

I'm not one to question the motivation and savvy of thieves, but without problems leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I think they will find numerous ever changing obstacles.

 

[bkilian]

Take away the "without the disc" part and you'll realise you can already do all that with any console, as long as you carry a small disc that weighs 16 grams.
So what you actually like is some of the tiny parts that they haven't taken away. Yet.

You know, people say this to me all the time, but about my Kindle. "Do you realize you could just carry around a book?". Yeah. sure. My kindle has over 400 books on it. So I'm not just carrying around a book, I'm carrying around 300 pounds of books (136 kilos for you folks with sane measuring systems). Same for games. I go to someone's house, mention a game in passing, and they express interest in it, I don't have to have thought about it beforehand and brought my entire game library with me. This happens more often than you think.
And if our reading of the family members piece is correct, two people playing the same game at the same time with only a single purchase is something we have never had.

 

[Strange]

You know, people say this to me all the time, but about my Kindle. "Do you realize you could just carry around a book?". Yeah. sure. My kindle has over 400 books on it. So I'm not just carrying around a book, I'm carrying around 300 pounds of books (136 kilos for you folks with sane measuring systems). Same for games. I go to someone's house, mention a game in passing, and they express interest in it, I don't have to have thought about it beforehand and brought my entire game library with me. This happens more often than you think.

All of the carrying around your whole library is good until you realize you're going to have to wait for a HUGE download that will at least take several hours.

In reality you're going to face something like the following: 10GB@ 32Mbps (4MB/s, which I doubt even a 100Mbps connection can reliably do with console servers. I get 1MB/s max with my 100Mbps connection)

The above calculation requires about 42 minutes until you actually get to play the damn thing under a relatively small sized disk game and very, very generous network speeds.

So no I don't consider carry around my entire disk library even remotely convenient.

And if our reading of the family members piece is correct, two people playing the same game at the same time with only a single purchase is something we have never had.

Considering how restrictive everything else is this is probably unlikely.

 

[Arwin]

This works fine for most games on PSN, buy the. Once, install and play on two. Some games has limitations for online play however, allowing you to only go online with your main account which cannot be logged on on two PS3s at the same time.

 

[mrcorbo]

All of the carrying around your whole library is good until you realize you're going to have to wait for a HUGE download that will at least take several hours.

You don't have to download the whole game before you are able to start playing and the game will continue to download the remainder while you're actively playing.

 

[Squilliam]

I may as well share my perspective with you.

I work with people with severe disabilities ranging from paraplegia all the way to tetraplegia. The barriers for someone who is in a wheelchair to just 'swap discs' is immense, for people who cannot adequately move their arms the game disc may as well be in Somalia, guarded by pirates, inside vats of sulfuric acid. To those who are trapped by physical disabilities the Xbox One DRM system is a life-maker. For some of the people I know their whole life is in games they play.

I would love to be able to say 'thank you' in person if the people I work with are able to go 'Xbox On, switch to Sky channel 001' or 'Xbox On, Play Fallout 4'. The needs of the many who suffer in silence are greater than the needs of the few whom will be inconvenienced by this. Many of the disabilities are for life whereas many of the inconveniences offered by this DRM may only last for a few weeks (at most). You can find alternatives to the Xbox One if it pisses you off too much but the people I know cannot find alternatives to not being able to walk, to move their arms, to being trapped in a world where only games give them a chance to feel as if they are alive.

 

[Brad Grenz]

You don't have to download the whole game before you are able to start playing and the game will continue to download the remainder while you're actively playing.

I know that's an announced feature for PS4, but has it been confirmed for Xbox One? And does a progressive download still work if the reason you want to boot up your game on a friend's system is to show off a late game save/content? If the download is optimized assuming you want the beginning of the game first and the end of the game last as if you're playing for the first time you'd just end up having to wait for the whole game to finish downloading.

 

[AzBat]

If it's using Virtual Machine tech, why does it need to download the whole game? Why can't it just download the parts it needs?

Tommy McClain

 

[Strange]

You don't have to download the whole game before you are able to start playing and the game will continue to download the remainder while you're actively playing.

And what's the minimum required for the game to work? What about your saves? Are you going to download your saves over? which parts do you download then?

Partial downloads are good and all if you know perfectly where the user will play to within the first 1 hour or so. If you bring your saves over you're going to need everything.

If it's using Virtual Machine tech, why does it need to download the whole game? Why can't it just download the parts it needs?

Tommy McClain

And how long do you have to wait for the parts you need? Can you predict the second console's loading behavior, especially when the second console has legitimate saves? Imagine loading a level taking a hour. That will be a interesting sight.

Developers would do doubt want players to get consistent experiences, and partial downloads only work when you know exactly what the player will go through in the beginning stages of the game, and can stop them when they start to hit un-downloaded portions.

This basically only works for New Games, so I can't imagine partial downloading alleviating this issue.

 

[Cyan]

It is really quite straight forward. Do you like AAA console games and want to continue playing them? If yes, then these policies are perfectly reasonable reactions to the market realities. Your last paragraph is nonsensical. This a change of business model. One that is directed entirely at gamestop, with the side benefit of potentially reducing piracy substantially. There is no anti-consumer INTENTION here.

Given that these policies are probably necessary for the industry, then MS actually has provided a lot of extra value / services to make up of what they are taking away. In particular, the gifting, the play anywhere, and family play /accounts represent a substantial gain of functionality. For me personally with two boys, the last one is extremely significant and represents massive value - one that could potentially save me a couple of thousand dollars over the generation.

By "the last one"... do you mean family play? And how can you save a couple of thousand dollars? That's a lot of money. Just curious... -I wonder if I am missing something-

I suppose you used to buy an additional copy of your games for your children before.

 

[ninzel]

I wonder how widespread the problem of games selling for $5 less a week later really is?
We know it does happen, but is that really where most used game sales come from?
I don't know but I imagine that if you are the type of person who wants to play the game within the first few weeks and you are already willing to pay $55,is an extra $5 really going to stop you. I think they are using an extreme specific example to justify a widespread all encompassing policy.

 

[MrFox]

I wonder how widespread the problem of games selling for $5 less a week later really is?
We know it does happen, but is that really where most used game sales come from?
I don't know but I imagine that if you are the type of person who wants to play the game within the first few weeks and you are already willing to pay $55,is an extra $5 really going to stop you. I think they are using an extreme specific example to justify a widespread all encompassing policy.

Well, for the US, if I remember NPD latest figures, it was something like a 15 billion sales for the industry, and 7 billion in consoles and new games, while less than 2 billion was used games income. There was also a 6 billion in DLC. That 2 billion supposedly had 70% of it's trade in value reinvested in new games which is part of the new sales figure.

It's not the shit about a game disc being resold 20 times over. It's a fucking lie.

It's the alleged 400 million being given to the NFL which you should be worried about, that would be enough for 10 new original AAA IPs, but nooooooo, that money is taken from the games industry, and given outside of it, for an exclusive right to prevent any competitors.... from competing fairly.

 

[bkilian]

I know that's an announced feature for PS4, but has it been confirmed for Xbox One? And does a progressive download still work if the reason you want to boot up your game on a friend's system is to show off a late game save/content? If the download is optimized assuming you want the beginning of the game first and the end of the game last as if you're playing for the first time you'd just end up having to wait for the whole game to finish downloading.

From http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xboxone/what-it-is :
With Xbox One, you can start playing immediately as games install. And updates install seamlessly in the background, so your games and entertainment won’t be interrupted