XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[BRiT]

Let me repeat this again for those that I have not given time-outs to...

The ethics of copyright and 2nd hand sales control belong in another thread. I'm sick of saying this over and over every time the mention of second hand controls are raised, and I'll start administering heavy-handed injustice against people rights as posters if I catch more political and ethical discussion here. Whether you think it's immoral or not is immaterial to this discussion in this forum. The business outcomes are relevant, whether you like it personally or not is relevant, and whether consumers shy away from it or not is relevant, but one's rights as a consumer is a whole other debate that doesn't belong here.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

As joker454 and Laa Yosh already pointed out, it looks like a necessary evil for developers.

I think most people can understand a rationale "necessary" argument; certainly many developers have spoken out on this, but I suspect there is an element of greed here - and I'm thinking publishers here, rather than developers. Excepting Apple Stores, brick and mortar retail isn't doing great and I can't remember when there were so few gaming stores around where you can go, chat to the guys who work there and try games before you buy. It sounds like these places are scraping by mostly on used game sales so this move is diverting money from retail to publishers, further choking the stores.

I have to say, this isn't appealing to me.

 

[Cjail]

There is less Piracy on PS3 than on 360 yet 360 games sell more.. Explain please how is this possible..

If I am not mistaken Xbox 360 sold 1-2 million units more than PS3 so that's one explanation.
Sony financial reports say how much money they made for the sales of video games but not how many copies they actually sold so I am can't give you an answer, sorry.
This is their financial report for their last fiscal year, ended March 2013, so feel free to read it.

 

[upnorthsox]

Actually step one is false. Day and date direct downloads.

XBox Live store is a retailer. Unless you're talking about direct download from EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc. then link please?

 

[AlphaWolf]

The goal here is those who buy Xbox One physical discs to have the same usability on as exists on the Xbox 360. If you went for a digital download then you lost that flexibility right out the gate. Complain to Microsoft , not me

So advantages don't count, i see.

 

[AzBat]

Okay, let's back up a step. We know that before you can play an Xbox One game you need to:

• Buy the game disc from a retailer (or approved trade-in partner).
• Install the game to the Xbox One hard drive.
• Login and register the game via Xbox Live.
• ..and to continue to play, connect at least once every 24hrs.

So my first question is, if your internet connection goes out and is out for more than 24hrs and you put a game disc in, does it matter if it's the same disc? I've installed a bunch of games on my PS3 (no choice, ha!) and if I want to play any the PS3 doesn't care if it's the same disc or not. This approach works now. However, if Microsoft are using Blu-ray Unique Volume Keys then the install could lock to that specific disc.

But even assuming there are no unique discs (which would be easier for piracy), for the second person to play the game they would then need to go through the above steps only they can't unless person 1 have "gifted" the game to them using Xbox Live, at which point person 1's game is rendered invalid immediately.

The disc-in-the-tray option would be there only for playing pre-installed games, that the system believes - based on its last connection to Xbox Live - you own, when it can't reach the authentication servers and for which you can insert an original game disc.

Now I'm confused! LOL Yes, currently I can use any 360 disc in the tray after I've already installed it to the hard drive. So it sounds like it works the same way on PS3 as well.

For the XB1 once you install the game to a machine Microsoft knows that specific disc can't be installed elsewhere without connection to the Internet. So there must already be a unique ID on the disc. So sense you're required to have access to the Internet on install you'll never be able to play if you're not the owner or family member. So yeah, the disc-in-tray option shouldn't care if it's your disc or not since both discs were bought & activated. I think I'm following you now.

BTW, you're thinking that person 1's game is rendered invalid immediately fails if person 1 never goes back online for it to be invalidated. So in theory if you never went online could the disc-in-the-tray option allow you to use someone else's disc? This is almost like Inception, I think my head hurts. LOL

Tommy McClain

 

[Arwin]

If this new system works, then lower prices should be a given.

There are gamers who would want a much better approach to the changes in the industry, or a much open approach as you say, just as there're people in every walk of life who try to get something for nothing rather than pay for it. It's common human behaviour. The fact that people are complaining after the Xbox reveal and the subsequent announcements shouldn't come as any surprise.

In this case I feel like it's always the innocent who pay for the sin of the sinners. Because I had to pay most of my games full price and they weren't cheap.

Personally, I don't think that the DRM policies have any great effect on the sales of games. Those people who like to buy games are still buying games. Those people who never buy games are still not buying games. The problem I see with this is that I think that more fuss has been made by those people who were morally outraged over the whole concept of someone else getting something for nothing, than by the actual effect on sales figures.

Publishers on the other hand want a bigger piece of the pie because 2nd hand sales hurt their sales. As is clear in this thread, if we read what Laa Yosh and what other people in the industry said, it has become an "Traditionalism vs. Evolve or die" argument, with a strong element of "If you are not following copyright policies very carefully, you are against the law" applied.

It is a no-win argument. Those who still think the traditional approach is valid do so for reasons that are perfectly valid to them. Then those who don't use it, ditto. The problem is occurring, IMHO, because gaming is a completely different kettle of fish due to a cultural history of game sharing, Gamestop-Game-Ebay and used book sales.

That's why those who use the arguments of "we shall accept it" are having their words dismissed; those are round-hole, square-peg arguments.

There has to be another solution, creating a console that can't be pirated, discs and digital games with an unique special code that ties the game to the owner forever so a game can never be resold without their permission, and when sold the game is bound to the new user with the publisher receiving a fee.

The most positive thing about the current DRM is that small, poor developers can actually survive now through 2nd hand sales.

Cheers

-Cose

But small, poor developers wouldn't be able to release a game on disc anyway. They are much more likely to survive by being able to cheaply publish their game by themselves, or being supported by other initiatives (such as Sony's drive for supporting Indie games, or the 360's XBLIG - though financially I understand that didn't work out so well, versus say something like iOS, but it was a good idea).

It remains to be seen how much of a choice we will have, to accept it or not.

Definitely my dream is for a personal, lifetime, cross-platform licence for all intellectual ip including music, video and games, that can be resold. Who knows, eh?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Sony had a patent on a secure nfc microcontroller on the disc, this would allow you to tie the game to the console without any online authentication at all.

There was much speculation they are going to deploy this for PS4. I guess we'll find out soon. Certainly if Sony are sincere about never needing to go online, this could be the perfect scenario.

When you install the game it effectively disables the disc and there could be a surrender process where the game is removed from the console and the disc is re-enabled, It's not wholly foolproof though; if the device breaks or is stolen then you still need a way to re-enable it to re-install it on a replacement device. PSN could keep track of this, like like Xbox Live probably will, but you're back to needing some ability to connect it.

 

[Averagejoe]

If I am not mistaken Xbox 360 sold 1-2 million units more than PS3 so that's one explanation.
Sony financial reports say how much money they made for the sales of video games but not how many copies they actually sold so.
This is their financial report for their last fiscal year, ended March 2013, so feel free to read it.

The xbox and PS3 are tied sales wise..

 

[AlphaWolf]

The xbox and PS3 are tied sales wise..

Not by any official count, but they are close.

There's a number of reasons why one platform may have sold more games than another. Perhaps US customers spend more on games, perhaps live makes the 360 a more palatable destination. I'm not sure that the piracy numbers are clear enough to give any real insight into overall sales figures without a lot of publisher data that we don't have.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

So advantages don't count, i see.

The advantages of what? Digital downloads? I think they are well known but on the path Microsoft had trodden, their DRM requires connection once a day to authenticate you still own the game.

Somebody who purchases digital downloads will have no backup method to authenticate ownership, those with discs will - the disc itself, just like we have today.

I'm not down on digital downloads - my Steam library is enormous and with the exception of Uncharted GA, all my Vita games were digital purchases and I've bought music from iTunes since 2004. The only media I still purchase on disc are Blu-ray movies and large PS3 games. The former because I value the quality of Blu-ray A/V and the later so I can trade them in to buy more games.

 

[Silenti]

These types of games (or at least the ones with no multiplayer to compensate) will suffer the drawbacks of the new system and their sales will drop. So publishers will stop making them. Natural selection, really.

Hope springs eternal. However, the rental services from Redbox (2$/day locally) haven't stopped them yet. Personally, I am desperately hoping there will be a severing of MP and SP content. I would happily pay 60$ for a good and lengthy campaign and care nothing for MP vs modes. Always thought Co-op was more of the single player types since you play through the campaign with them.

 

[AlphaWolf]

The advantages of what? Digital downloads? I think they are well known but on the path Microsoft had trodden, their DRM requires connection once a day to authenticate you still own the game.

The advantage of being able to play it anywhere on any box (provided I can find internet I guess).

 

[Arwin]

The advantages of what? Digital downloads? I think they are well known but on the path Microsoft had trodden, their DRM requires connection once a day to authenticate you still own the game.

Somebody who purchases digital downloads will have no backup method to authenticate ownership, those with discs will - the disc itself, just like we have today.

I'm not down on digital downloads - my Steam library is enormous and with the exception of Uncharted GA, all my Vita games were digital purchases and I've bought music from iTunes since 2004. The only media I still purchase on disc are Blu-ray movies and large PS3 games. The former because I value the quality of Blu-ray A/V and the later so I can trade them in to buy more games.

Pretty much describes me, except I never bought music from iTunes because to my ears, the sound quality wasn't good enough (and still too frequently isn't, imho).

I'm well aware though that some of the digitally purchased games on Vita for instance also require revalidation every once in a while (could be 24 hours as well, can't remember). PS+ titles may fall under that too.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

No, I don't like those things, but since I'm not worried about any of them, the things I like outweigh them. I don't resell games, I don't generally lend games out, and I pretty much only give games away once.
I actually like that I can share a game between multiple consoles in the household, without needing the disc.
I actually like that I can play any game I own on any console, just by logging in.
I actually like that anyone in my family can play any game I own, on any console.

Take away the "without the disc" part and you'll realise you can already do all that with any console, as long as you carry a small disc that weighs 16 grams.
So what you actually like is some of the tiny parts that they haven't taken away. Yet.

So we're lazy & giving up our self-respect now? That's a pompous self-righteous view. I've thought it through logically & in my case the new method gives me enough positives to outweigh the negatives. Do I like DRM? No! Would I like a no-DRM method that still provides those same positives? Hell Yeah! Sorry we don't put as much importance on the things you hold dear. So piss off if you think I'm giving up my self respect.

You clearly didn't read the entire post, so calm down and try not to loose your temper.
And yes, I do find giving up consumer rights happily for a false convenience (as said above) to be lazy.

I was a game developer some years ago but realized the situation was untenable. You had the core gamer demanding 50+ million dollar games yet they are too small of an audience to support more advances in that realm, they also tend to just 'meh' everything even if it's a 9/10, and they often buy games used anyways. The reality occurred to me that my bosses would not be able to keep paying me forever if it just all went on as status quo, so I leveraged the at the time insanity of the sdf to make a ridiculous amount of money between 2007 and 2009 and was able to quit, launch my own websites business and am now semi-retired. Many of my former co-workers were not so lucky and have either changed fields or moved on to mobile/social games due to both quality of life issues in the industry and/or due to the companies simply imploding.

Now I realize many don't give a shit about them and all they want is their 50+ million dollar budget games so they can go buy them used at $30 or just call them 'meh' and wait for the company to fail so they can pick up the game new at a $10 fire sale, or just steal them the old fashioned way. But the reality is the situation has forced publishers and developers to adapt. People can dream that the core gamers that legally buy games at full price are enough to keep the current system going but that simply isn't the case, it's over.

IMO, this post is the embodiment of what's wrong in the industry.
All you did was complain about core gamers.
You regarded your customers as an enemy. How could your previous company ever be successful in a business like that?

There are profitable AAA games. The reason for that is that otherwise, there wouldn't be any in the market by now, nor there'd be even more about to release this year.
If your company's publisher couldn't handle the budget of a game aimed at core gamers, or if your studio didn't have the manpower/talent to handle it, then the studio shouldn't be doing such games at all.

Don't blame bad management from the heads at the studio or the publisher on customers.
Or don't blame the customers for the fact that there were better games in the market other than yours at the time of release.

Yes, there are risks. There are risks in every single competition-driven market.
What did you want? Flowing rivers of money for every single person that work in the industry, either the game that comes out is good or an absolute crap?




No wonder this industry is filled with distrust and disdain between gamers, publishers, developers and the media.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Now I'm confused! LOL Yes, currently I can use any 360 disc in the tray after I've already installed it to the hard drive. So it sounds like it works the same way on PS3 as well.

Yes, PS3 almost always wants the game disc inserted even to play installed games - not that many games fully install so the disc is actually required for data access.

For the XB1 once you install the game to a machine Microsoft knows that specific disc can't be installed elsewhere without connection to the Internet. So there must already be a unique ID on the disc. So sense you're required to have access to the Internet on install you'll never be able to play if you're not the owner or family member. So yeah, the disc-in-tray option shouldn't care if it's your disc or not since both discs were bought & activated. I think I'm following you now.

We don't yet know the exact mechanics. Blu-ray Unique Volume Key, or printed serial number on a label - old school. Microsoft just need a unique key to identify a particular purchase because it's the purchase and not the disc that matter.

BTW, you're thinking that person 1's game is rendered invalid immediately fails if person 1 never goes back online for it to be invalidated. So in theory if you never went online could the disc-in-the-tray option allow you to use someone else's disc? This is almost like Inception, I think my head hurts. LOL

If I were Microsoft, I would have designed the gifting process so that as soon as you "give" your game to another person, then Xbox Live suspends ownership from the sender, preventing you from playing the game. Onwnership when then be in situ until one of the following happens:

• the receiver "accepts" the gift, permanently transferring ownership.
• the receiver "rejects" the gift unused, at which point ownership returns to the sender.
• 7 days expire without the receiver accepting the gift, at which point ownership returns to the sender.

We don't know if this is the case, but I would be surprised if this is far from the mark

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

So we're lazy & giving up our self-respect now? That's a pompous self-righteous view. I've thought it through logically & in my case the new method gives me enough positives to outweigh the negatives. Do I like DRM? No! Would I like a no-DRM method that still provides those same positives? Hell Yeah! Sorry we don't put as much importance on the things you hold dear. So piss off if you think I'm giving up my self respect.

Tommy McClain

Have you taken a look at the PS4 thread?

It's very interesting to note that there are no "Xbox Fanboys" assaulting that thread, while the Xbox threads are full of Sony fanboys arguing and trolling.

Why do you think that is?

Another interesting event to take notice of.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Pretty much describes me, except I never bought music from iTunes because to my ears, the sound quality wasn't good enough (and still too frequently isn't, imho).

I'm well aware though that some of the digitally purchased games on Vita for instance also require revalidation every once in a while (could be 24 hours as well, can't remember). PS+ titles may fall under that too.

Alas years of heavy metal concerts have left my ears unable to tell the difference between an AAC and a CD, or possibly even a crumpled cassette tape

I had no idea the Vita had a similar mechanism. I've got the wifi-only model and take mine abroad quite a lot and haven't yet had any problems yet. I'll definitely have to look into this.

 

[joker454]

IMO, this post is the embodiment of what's wrong in the industry.
All you did was complain about core gamers.
You regarded your customers as an enemy. How could your previous company ever be successful in a business like that?

No you read it wrong. What I said is that paying core gamers are not enough to keep moving this industry forwards, even when using cheaper outsourcing as so many studios do.

There are profitable AAA games. The reason for that is that otherwise, there wouldn't be any in the market by now, nor there'd be even more about to release this year.

Yes, the bandaid solution has been the emergence of uber publishers that make profit on one game and lose money on a bunch of others to be able to stay afloat. This isn't sustainable either as you are never guaranteed to have a multi million seller amongst all your games.

If your company's publisher couldn't handle the budget of a game aimed at core gamers, or if your studio didn't have the manpower/talent to handle it, then the studio shouldn't be doing such games at all.

Yes, plenty of studios have been obliterated. The ones remaining are releasing sequel number 3, 4 and 5 which core gamers also complain about. What happens when core gamers stop buying Halo 7, COD 12, or Uncharted 6? Right now publishers have no choice but to milk these cows until the end because they lose so much money on other projects. Again, it can't be sustained.

Yes, there are risks. There are risks in every single competition-driven market.
What did you want? Flowing rivers of money for every single person that work in the industry, either the game that comes out is good or an absolute crap?

There are risks which exactly why the companies left standing are adapting right before your very eyes. You just don't like how they are adapting to stay alive. That market is what is pushing them in this very direction, it's not random, it's a response to the realities of current game development.

 

[Cjail]

@Averagejoe

Now I just also showed you that Sony doesn't give sales numbers for games BUT you claim to know that PS3 games sales are lower than 360 so I wonder where did you get those information since Sony itself keeps them secret to the public.
This said you still insist to have an answer to you question but you have asked me to answer an incredibly complicated question and to answer you I would have have to make an incredibly complicated and extensive investigation and still my results would be inconclusive since there are countless of variables to consider, variables that eludes even the best economists on the planet.

So please be real and ask questions that don't require days or years of studies and investigation from me.
I won't public a study about "How to sell more games on a console: recipe to become a billionaire in 3 easy steps."

The answer you seek is out there and all you have to do is take a MBA and make a insanely difficult analysis of the video game market.
See you in 3-5 years, more likely 10, when this thread will be dead an closed by Shifty.