XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

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Unless I am reading MS info all wrong you can use mobile broadband for authentication as well.
Thanks - I've never assumed this not to be the case, I think the only requirement (or recommendation) that I read was a 1.5Mbps connection. But I'm guessing for some this is also not desirable. Certainly in Europe it's not uncommon to need a special tethering plan (or other technical workaround ;)) to get your phone to operate as a wifi hotspot. I can't imagine the XB1 cares too much as long as the connection is there, fast and wide enough.

I wonder if they are planning to support the USB modem profile for mobile internet - those little sticks are pretty popular.
 
It is really quite straight forward. Do you like AAA console games and want to continue playing them? If yes, then these policies are perfectly reasonable reactions to the market realities. Your last paragraph is nonsensical. This a change of business model. One that is directed entirely at gamestop, with the side benefit of potentially reducing piracy substantially. There is no anti-consumer INTENTION here.

Given that these policies are probably necessary for the industry, then MS actually has provided a lot of extra value / services to make up of what they are taking away. In particular, the gifting, the play anywhere, and family play /accounts represent a substantial gain of functionality. For me personally with two boys, the last one is extremely significant and represents massive value - one that could potentially save me a couple of thousand dollars over the generation.

Wow just wow..

I am in shock how many people here want to pretend that this is something that most be done so that developers can survive,holy sh** some of you are really incredible...

Why not make live $100,while they are at it,wait why not make games $80 $20 dollars to save the weak developers who are dying on hunger,while you are ad it why don't you ask for all DLC to be priced at $30 dollars so that developer can really make money out of those 5 maps or 3 guns ans six different colors for your character that they sell you..

Wait how about a told pay $20 every 100 hours of gameplay in your console so that MS can't starve to death..:oops:

In fact did you know that there are rumors about another increase in game prices to $70 dollars.?

Oh those poor developers and publishers..
 
Would you guys rather pay $100 for a new game and have a used game cost $70? Because that's the only alternative and I'm quite sure it'd be the worse one.

I'd say the other alternative is to drop out of the retail market all together if pubs/devs don't want to deal with the used game market and the perception of "ownership" that comes with a physical disk. By going digital only you work with the current perception and standards of "digital ownership" and digital rights instead of fighting against the perception of physical ownership and rights. Of course they don't want to give up the expanded market physical distribution provides, do they?

Gaming doesn't have special needs. It was special before, as people could've gotten the same product without playing the full price. What happens now is that game devs are finally catching up to hairdressers.

Come on now, that analogy is as broken as the car analogy. A hair cut is a service, and cannot be packaged up as a product no matter how hard you try. I can't take my hair cut and resell it or transfer it. Just as a car is a packaged product whose quality degrades over time and over use and can be resold. Neither match the reality of digital media with a digital license which can be re-sold or transferred quite easily while maintaining 100% of the original experience. The only reason that can't be done with digital media is via artificial constraints, which is why the hair cut analogy doesn't work.

EDIT

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for or against this approach. I just take issue with the things noted above.
 
You did not ridicule me in any way,and there is no need to be upset.

You simple choose to ignore my point,and actually attacked my analogy of cars rather than the point it self,because we know that is you take no good care of your console like you car will fail,this was even more true with the heat prom xbox 360.

But wait the POINT is again having the right to sell your games to who ever you want,when ever you want period,it has been like this for ages,and now MS want to change it.

I have the right to see what i own to who ever i want,and you and MS should dealt with it,for me it will be very simple i have online but i refuse to buy something that step on my rights as the xbox one does.

No, but you don't. You don't OWN the games you purchase, you own a LICENSE that allows you to play the games.

If you buy a CAR, you OWN the car. You can put a different engine in that car. You can put a different STEREO in that car. You can do all sorts of great things when you purchase a PRODUCT.

Video Games are NOT PRODUCTS. They are licensing agreements that YOU agree to when you pay to use the product as the OWNER intended.

The only similar car analogy would be if you bought a Mustang GT and when you did so, you had to sign a waiver that said you wouldn't drive the car faster than 80 MPH. Even though the car can do upwards of 150 MPH (I know, I have one), you agree NOT to do so.

If you DO so, then Ford revokes your permission to drive the vehicle and now, even though you still own it... you can't drive it any more.

Car analogies are stupid. Cars require fuel, they require maintenance, they will degrade in performance even if you do everything you can to keep them in tip-top shape. Video Games don't have any of those requirements. So used video game sales are NOT the same as used car sales.

If you buy a 2000 Porsche, it will not perform the same way it did back in 2000 when it was new. But if you buy a copy of Diablo II that was released in 2000, it will play exactly the same today as it did back when it was released.

How difficult is that to understand? And if that is understood, then how difficult is it to realize that car analogies have no place when discussing video games?
 
Diablo 3 is Activision, Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision
Diablo 3 sold over 12 million copies and made ton of money.
That's what you get with DRM: tons of money and guaranteed revenue from all you customers.
Also WOW is Activision: a online only game that sold and made millions.

So are you one of those guys who post on forums as normal poster but work for MS.?

Because that is the only way that ^^^ up there will make sense,consumer will find anything of this sort horrible,and in fact wasn't there a huge backlash with those games.?

There is little piracy on PS3,good measures work and constant online DRM wasn't need it..
 
I believe the argument being set forth is that disc-in-the-tray should be an alternative to once-a-day-authentication.

I.e, you lose connection for more than 24 hours, you're only recourse to play games is put the disc in. Then you're no worse off than you are now and for those with immutable connections, they never have to big through the pile of game boxes again - I'm with you on this, btw.

That's actually what I thought MS was proposing when the original rumors starting leaking out. It seems like the most obvious and best suited solution.

The fact that they have gone this extra step to say "Screw you if you don't have broadband" is really quite a shock to me and I'm really interested in seeing how that decision is going to play out over the next 5 years. (I'd say 10 years, but we'll know after 5. Because if it really does matter, the One will be dead after 5.)
 
The responses in this thread are kinda surreal.

Consumers and Devs need to get along. :cool:


That's actually what I thought MS was proposing when the original rumors starting leaking out. It seems like the most obvious and best suited solution.

The fact that they have gone this extra step to say "Screw you if you don't have broadband" is really quite a shock to me and I'm really interested in seeing how that decision is going to play out over the next 5 years. (I'd say 10 years, but we'll know after 5. Because if it really does matter, the One will be dead after 5.)

MS isn't too keen on game preservation if OG XBOX LIVE games getting the plug and no backwards capabilities on XBXONE are any indication.
 
Wow just wow..

I am in shock how many people here want to pretend that this is something that most be done so that developers can survive,holy sh** some of you are really incredible...

Why not make live $100,while they are at it,wait why not make games $80 $20 dollars to save the weak developers who are dying on hunger,while you are ad it why don't you ask for all DLC to be priced at $30 dollars so that developer can really make money out of those 5 maps or 3 guns ans six different colors for your character that they sell you..

Wait how about a told pay $20 every 100 hours of gameplay in your console so that MS can't starve to death..:oops:

In fact did you know that there are rumors about another increase in game prices to $70 dollars.?

Oh those poor developers and publishers..

The problem is (going to lump everyone just for examples) that gamers demand more, more gfx, longer games, better IQ, larger worlds. We don't want to have to switch the disc anymore, we don't want to listen to the DVD noise. How do you solve all of that without allowing piracy to get larger? You have to set limits, and as gamers demand things, the companies have to find solutions that they think will work best for both sides. It is all about revenue for companies, it has to be, our world does not work well for a "Bungie" to spend years developing a game without either having a stockpile or a steady stream of income.

Might be different if we were all still happy with cartridges and 2D graphics?

If X1 made piracy easier, it would hurt everyone.

So are you one of those guys who post on forums as normal poster but work for MS.?

Because that is the only way that ^^^ up there will make sense,consumer will find anything of this sort horrible,and in fact wasn't there a huge backlash with those games.?

There is little piracy on PS3,good measures work and constant online DRM wasn't need it..

However, consumers still complained about things, more so on the 360 side that was still using DVD. Then you have the complaints that blu-ray is too slow, so that limits things on the PS3 side. So I don't know, how can you balance out all the needs while pleasing everyone? (You can't, and some argue that you should not try to please everyone)
 
No, but you don't. You don't OWN the games you purchase, you own a LICENSE that allows you to play the games.

If you buy a CAR, you OWN the car. You can put a different engine in that car. You can put a different STEREO in that car. You can do all sorts of great things when you purchase a PRODUCT.

Video Games are NOT PRODUCTS. They are licensing agreements that YOU agree to when you pay to use the product as the OWNER intended.

The only similar car analogy would be if you bought a Mustang GT and when you did so, you had to sign a waiver that said you wouldn't drive the car faster than 80 MPH. Even though the car can do upwards of 150 MPH (I know, I have one), you agree NOT to do so.

If you DO so, then Ford revokes your permission to drive the vehicle and now, even though you still own it... you can't drive it any more.

Car analogies are stupid. Cars require fuel, they require maintenance, they will degrade in performance even if you do everything you can to keep them in tip-top shape. Video Games don't have any of those requirements. So used video game sales are NOT the same as used car sales.

If you buy a 2000 Porsche, it will not perform the same way it did back in 2000 when it was new. But if you buy a copy of Diablo II that was released in 2000, it will play exactly the same today as it did back when it was released.

How difficult is that to understand? And if that is understood, then how difficult is it to realize that car analogies have no place when discussing video games?


Yes i own a license when was the last time Nintendo,MS or Sony went to your house as ask for your copy of their games back.?

Because Nintendo never eveerrrrr has come to my house and tell me,hey you know what you have play that Nes game long enough give it back the license is over...

This is the beauty with this new DRM system,they can chose to end support for your game and it will be useless.

Oh and in the regard of the game yes it is yours,that copy that you own is your the CD is your the cardtrige is your Nintendo,sony or MS has not right to take it from you,what is their is the program it self,you can't reproduce it,copy it or anything on that sort,but the physical copy is your and once you buy it no one can't take it away from you..

Just like you car,oh and in some states modifying certain parts of your car is illegal,just like modifying a video game.
 
But the "I actually like the DRM" argument?
I actually like that I can't privately resell my used games?
I actually like that I can't freely borrow my games?
I actually like that my console will turn into a brick if my connection goes out for over a day?
No, I don't like those things, but since I'm not worried about any of them, the things I like outweigh them. I don't resell games, I don't generally lend games out, and I pretty much only give games away once.
I actually like that I can share a game between multiple consoles in the household, without needing the disc.
I actually like that I can play any game I own on any console, just by logging in.
I actually like that anyone in my family can play any game I own, on any console.

As to that Steam/xb1 comparison, of course steam lets you play offline, because steam doesn't let you transfer licenses. The online check and license transfer go hand in hand. It would be too easy to abuse the system otherwise.
 
I think you are right, the publishers are most likely to require the same form of licensing from both platforms (no reason to buy those games then). But when it comes to Sony and Microsoft published games it very well may differ. And if the indications are true Sony will win that one hands down. But lets prepare to be disappointed.

Eh? How so? MS has already said all of the publisher restrictions on used game sales won't apply to MS published games.

Has Sony said the same? Has Sony said anything at all on this issue? What has Sony said on this issue?

In fact, the last thing that I read stated pretty clearly that Sony's PS4 was restricting all used game sales and made no distinction between Sony first party games or third party games.
 
:!::?: So if anyone in your family can play a game you own on an XBO, does that also imply they can play the SAME game at the same time? So to play Halo 5 multiplayer against my kids I wouldn't need to buy multiple copies of the game?
 
I still believe that the issue here is that it seems that MSFT could not really land a clear agreement with at least the biggest publishers, so pretty much they are trying to sell people a jump into the darkness/unknown.
They can only speak for them-selves on the matter and clearly that is not good enough. I think they should have been more authoritative with publishers in the face of what seems a lack of consensus.

How is there a lack of consensus when none of the publishers have even spoken out about this issue?

I do see your point, but I think that's a by-product of the system that has been put into place. MS has pushed the entire situation off onto the publishers. It's up to them if they want to allow used game sales, if there will be a fee, etc. All MS did was create an environment that allows the publishers to make that choice. Clearly MS can't speak for all the publishers.
 
Right now no publisher allows this on Apple's store, Steam's store, etc. Microsoft as far as I know is the first to even allow this option, the ability to trade digital content. That's a good thing no? As for what I want, I want a fully dd system shareable across all the devices I own with the ability to trade. Simple :) No one has done this yet, but Microsoft looks to be on that path. So yeah that's exactly what I want.


Steam games are cheaper.
Apple store games majority is free.
So is Android majority of games are free.

This is not the case with the xbox one,and there are rumors already about $70 dollar games.

Are you a developer or work making games.?
 
Talking of which, there is a very interesting article comparing Steam to Xbox One:

http://www.incgamers.com/2013/06/no-the-xbox-one-is-not-just-like-steam/

horrible horrible article .

PC digital is a wacky, wild wasteland of fun. We have to put up with a fair amount of DRM nonsense on PC, it’s true. But that’s offset by all the benefits: modding, indie bundles, alpha/beta tests, variable pricing models. You’ve got everything on PC, from DRM models to rival Xbox One’s (hi there, SimCity) to digital platforms that are 100% DRM free (‘sup, GOG.)

so cause the pc is wacky its okay they have a fair amount of DRM nonsense ? Why can't the xbox one allow modding and indie bundles along with alpha and beta tests. I think all of them except the modding were done last generation. Also why can't we have variable pricing models ? You can buy the regular game at $60 , the CE at $100 just like we do now.

As for the sim city dig , I've been using mmorpgs for almost 2 decades infact the first major one I played is still avalible and its going on what 17 years now (ultima online)
 
No, but you don't. You don't OWN the games you purchase, you own a LICENSE that allows you to play the games.

If you buy a CAR, you OWN the car. You can put a different engine in that car. You can put a different STEREO in that car. You can do all sorts of great things when you purchase a PRODUCT.

Video Games are NOT PRODUCTS. They are licensing agreements that YOU agree to when you pay to use the product as the OWNER intended.

The only similar car analogy would be if you bought a Mustang GT and when you did so, you had to sign a waiver that said you wouldn't drive the car faster than 80 MPH. Even though the car can do upwards of 150 MPH (I know, I have one), you agree NOT to do so.

If you DO so, then Ford revokes your permission to drive the vehicle and now, even though you still own it... you can't drive it any more.

Car analogies are stupid. Cars require fuel, they require maintenance, they will degrade in performance even if you do everything you can to keep them in tip-top shape. Video Games don't have any of those requirements. So used video game sales are NOT the same as used car sales.

If you buy a 2000 Porsche, it will not perform the same way it did back in 2000 when it was new. But if you buy a copy of Diablo II that was released in 2000, it will play exactly the same today as it did back when it was released.

How difficult is that to understand? And if that is understood, then how difficult is it to realize that car analogies have no place when discussing video games?

I can buy a car right now , but I can't drive it without a liscense . I can't drive it without insurance , without registration. I can't drive it without gas. I can't let my 4 year old nephew drive it . I can't drive on side walks. I can't pass in the right lane. I can't park it where ever when ever I want.

100 years ago there wasn't an age limit for driving , you didn't need a liscense or registration or insurance. Its a wonder how things change huh and more and more rules are added as time goes on.
 
:!::?: So if anyone in your family can play a game you own on an XBO, does that also imply they can play the SAME game at the same time? So to play Halo 5 multiplayer against my kids I wouldn't need to buy multiple copies of the game?

Yes -- mostly, at least that's how I read it. From http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license

"You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time."

So I take it to mean you can play on your Xbox One and have 1 other Xbox One playing the same game at the same time with a single game purchase. If you want to play on more than 2 Xbox One consoles at the same time then you would likely need another purchase.
 
I have one objection against the idea that the publishers know what they are doing, and that is that the publishers only have their own interest at heart. We don't know that we are actually better off with having a publisher in the first place, but you can assume that publishers are not interested in any scenario where they aren't the biggest beneficiary, one way or the other.

In Europe, when they do, most people resell their games directly to one another using E-bay like services. Retail is dying, and digital distribution is taking over. You would think promoting digital distribution was in their interest, but for whatever reason I have yet to see a digital version that is cheaper than the retail version (it is typically the reverse).

Now either they think that retail is important for them and should stick around, or not, but what we are seeing now is just really weird. I think the fact that they are looking for ways to make money off-of second hand sales probably does mean that they feel that at least in the U.S., there is a lot of money being made there, though I have seen very conflicting reports, the only somewhat independent one seemed to show hardly any impact of reselling games. But Microsoft being at the forefront of this discussion currently at least fits with their dominance in the U.S., and the most logical point of contact for (also primarily U.S.) publishers.

Personally I think that the AAA gaming model is broken. I think comments about there being increasingly little room for AA games is false. Games need to diversify their size and marketshare massively. And I am all for a more open iOS style distribution platform where developers can publish more directly, without additional publishers being involved. It is in the interest of publishers to have a small amount of big projects that they can add value to by employing all their marketing, distribution channels and what not, and in fact, digital distribution is as much a danger to them as anything else. They may be the last to want to have retail being cut out in that respect, because it makes cutting out publishers altogether much easier, and makes the role of platform holders much more important (which also has downsides, but let's not get into that now).

The pay model will either have to involve very low pricing, where the prices are so low that the end-user doesn't care about not being able to resell, or they have to be high enough where the end-user needs to be able to get some value from reselling. In that latter situation, digital reselling would need to be supported by the platform, and in this case it would be relatively easy for the developer and publisher to receive secondary royalties, or set limitations on how soon you can resell the product (similar to how prices go down over time in other situations). Irrespective of whether that should be legal, I could see of a way in which that would become an acceptable solution for all.

I think it is definitely the case though that what option is chosen by the platform holders in the way they provide an interface that balances the interest of publishers, retailers and consumers will be an on-going balancing act, and it is certainly the case that the future of a platform (and publisher, retailer, etc.) can be made or broken by the right or wrong decisions. So I predict it will be fairly exciting to see how this pans out. ;) In the meantime though, we'll still enjoy our games. ;)
 
:!::?: So if anyone in your family can play a game you own on an XBO, does that also imply they can play the SAME game at the same time? So to play Halo 5 multiplayer against my kids I wouldn't need to buy multiple copies of the game?
Getting the family-and-friend thing down pat is important. PS3 messed this up when they switched to only two activated consoles. I cannot take my download games to a friend's house and play them there is two PS3's at home have the content, or we were playing on another friend's console a previous time.

I'm not sure there's any perfect solution. Too open is going to be exploited (like people game sharing with strangers on PS3), but too closed is going to be an annoyance. Managing a distinction between family and non-relatives with an account on the console seems necessary. Heh, maybe they can use Kinect to test for a family resemblance? :p
 
I'm going to say I actually like the DRM for the Xbox One. In my country we have 1.5M broadband connections (~80% attach rate) and 1.9 million mobile internet connections out of a population of ~4.4M. I can hardly see there being a problem with the console being unable to connect to the internet every day because if you've got a smart phone you can probably authenticate it that way as well through an app.

I honestly really cannot anticipate people who are mostly digitally dependent anyway willingly going places with no functioning internet connection.
That's more of an annoyance than anything else. My Xbox 360 automatically connects to the Internet when I play so it goes unnoticed.

Yet, grace periods would be welcome when you actually need to carry the console with you and an Internet connection is not granted.

The root of the problem is the DRM policies associated with this.

It's a shame I am starting to see where all those complaints about the Xbox One potentially becoming a snobbish club are coming from.

Americans have a very immature attitude towards the DRM policies. I wouldn't expect Tommy and RancidLunchMeat (and a few others) to complain much.

I remember reading a post which Tommy wrote a couple of days ago that he was *surprised* but he didn't go further with the appreciation.

The whole post sounded to me like he was saying that these DRM issues are taboo and inappropriate yet hip and cool. This is probably due to the fact that USA is still influenced from their past when they were a repressed puritan nation.

Like saying: "This might be wrong, but let's experiment, see what happens".
 
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