XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[Cjail]

That's why there's an on-line requirement. It makes great business sense for MS. If it offends you as a consumer you have the right to not purchase their product. This all seems very clear and obvious to me.

Yeah.
If we customers don't' like what MS is doing we can choose to not buy a Xbox One.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Gaming doesn't have special needs. It was special before, as people could've gotten the same product without playing the full price. What happens now is that game devs are finally catching up to hairdressers.

 

[Cjail]

Activision doesn't use online passes or drm but yet they make a killing, if the used game market was so toxic how come they make so much money?

Diablo 3 is Activision, Blizzard is a subsidiary of Activision
Diablo 3 sold over 12 million copies and made ton of money.
That's what you get with DRM: tons of money and guaranteed revenue from all you customers.
Also WOW is Activision: a online only game that sold and made millions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't understand this logic. If the business model is that bad then why dump the burden on the consumer instead of changing the business model? Its fucking backwards.

They are changing the business model. Changing it to one where there's income from used sales

Price hikes, piracy, used game sales, entitlement and whatever else publishers are pointing their finger at is code word for, "We are making stupid business decisions so someone has to pay and that person is YOU".

No-one's forced to buy anything they offer, so no-one is paying for their stupid business decisions except the companies. They will try different strategies. If they don't work, they'll try others. This gen they tried 2nd hand revenue generation through the introduction of a fee to play online. At the moment they are lokoing to try something new regards 2nd sales revenues. If that doesn't work and the market responds by giving them less money, they'll change strategy again. That's free market economics for you.

I can pic 30 different analogies and non have to do with the object in question,but with the RIGHT you have as a consumer to sell something you legally own,can you imagine Chrysler saying we want a cut of used cars because it eating into our new car sales.?

this second hand thing is absolute bullshit. If I buy a game it becomes mine and if I want too sell it its my choice. If a shop then decides to pay rent for a premises and pay salesmen to make my life easier selling it they derserve compensation, the developer doesn't deserve anything because its not there game anymore its mine.

The ethics of copyright and 2nd hand sales control belong in another thread. I'm sick of saying this over and over every time the mention of second hand controls are raised, and I'll start administering heavy-handed injustice against people rights as posters if I catch more political and ethical discussion here. Whether you think it's immoral or not is immaterial to this discussion in this forum. The business outcomes are relevant, whether you like it personally or not is relevant, and whether consumers shy away from it or not is relevant, but one's rights as a consumer is a whole other debate that doesn't belong here.

 

[Reiko]

Gaming doesn't have special needs. It was special before, as people could've gotten the same product without playing the full price. What happens now is that game devs are finally catching up to hairdressers.

Game development has gotten brutal over the years.

All that hard work and devs are getting canned for not meeting profit margin.

It doesn't even matter nowadays if the game is "polished" or "good" these days to guarantee massive sales. You just need to find the right hook for gamers to satisfy them.

 

[Rangers]

It makes the most amount of sense.

If Xbox One was a DD only console you should be at the mercy of DRM regardless.

At least with the disc in tray option (bearing in mind that genuine Xbox One's discs have a unique signature that can be recognized to prevent piracy) we can have 100% control of our playtime.

but then we're tethered to a disc, and that annoys me as i hate having to switch discs to switch games.

Personally I've posted this many times, I'm willing to give up used games for no more disc switching. It will be really nice to have a library at my fingertips, to sit down and play what I wish, then play something else without switching discs.

Why are people so accepting of restrictions ala steam, XBLA and PSN, but then involve a trivial spinning piece of plastic and those same restrictions are hitler-esque? It seems arbitrary.

I dont necessarily support these things, but I think their real world effect on me is likely to be extremely limited. Maybe the one that bother me most is no loaning to a friend who hasnt been on your FL for 30 days, and I've done that maybe twice in my life.

 

[Rangers]

I think the point for any device is not to offend the consumer. IMO And then you wonder why the big wigs in corporate are left scratching their heads when projected sales do not pan out as well as they have hoped.

Focus groups can be wrong.
Out of touch marketers can be wrong.

Yes, MS is reacting to a ever changing market beforehand with the XBXONE, but who's to say that market will go in the direction that MS is hoping for? It's a gamble.

Either the XBXONE succeeds greatly, is a mild success, or crashes and burns.

I imagine they could walk it all back with ease if all what you say pans out. But I strongly doubt it will. XBone set preorder records in UK. Angry people on message boards arent going to have much effect. 360 was always pretty unpopular on message boards and it did well.

Flip a few switches and you're back to no online required, disc in tray authentication, basically back to 360 DRM.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Game development has gotten brutal over the years.

All that hard work and devs are getting canned for not meeting profit margin.

It doesn't even matter nowadays if the game is "polished" or "good" these days to guarantee massive sales. You just need to find the right hook for gamers to satisfy them.

This is still a global recession and it's hit pretty much everything. I'd also like to think gamers are far more discriminating these these, and won't just buy Lethal Buddy Cop 3 because it's a licensed property and they liked the movie. It's always tough for indies and I don't see any of the top tier developers - at least the ones knocking out great games on a regular basis - having problems. Although Naughty Dog may after Fuse :|

What nobody wants is people to be so concerned about costs and sales that they no longer take risks or try innovation non-mainstream things and we get another ten years of FIFA, CoD, NFS and Battlefield - as much fun as they are.

Journey was EPIC and although Heavy Rain didn't appeal (and I didn't buy it), I appreciate the publisher and developers for trying to do something different. Beyond Two Souls, on the other hand, I'm all over.

 

[Nesh]

You people are comparing Steam with XBONE and it puzzles me that at the same time you forget that that the disk medium hasnt been abandoned in PC's and games on disks dont necessarily require internet. And if they do then ask yourselves why the game market is shrinking in the PC world compared to the console market and why people are more willing to pirate on PCs. XBONE requires internet and DRM check ups for everything. XBONE is the platform itself. Steam is a service. PC is the platform on which Steam is just an optional service
And in addition you are comparing a market that in many areas is not the same as the other

 

[Cjail]

@Rangers

You can install all you games on the HDD precisely to avoid swapping discs.
Blu-ray will be the main distribution system simply because it's more immediate than digital delivery.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I imagine they could walk it all back with ease if all what you say pans out. But I strongly doubt it will. XBone set preorder records in UK. Angry people on message boards arent going to have much effect. 360 was always pretty unpopular on message boards and it did well.

Well I think it was only Blockbuster where the XB1 set UK pre-order records, I don't know where Blockbuster figure in being representative of UK gamers but, ironically, their model of lending games could be severely jeopardised unless Microsoft plan to make concessions here.

Generally I agree with you, the vocal minority are just that: a minority, but don't discount buzz (or anti-buzz) that early adopters can create about a new product. Plus when non-savvy friends and family might be pondering a device, if they approach the person who is down on the XB1, it isn't going to get recommended. The poor sods will probably end use with a Wii U

 

[Scott_Arm]

So you don't buy smartphone apps? Just checking.

No, I don't. They're so cheap I wouldn't expect to resell them anyway. It would be like trying to flip goods from the dollar store.

 

[Rangers]

@Rangers

You can install all you games on the HDD precisely to avoid swapping discs.
Blu-ray will be the main distribution system simply because it's more immediate than digital delivery.

Well you install games on 360 now. But you still have to have the disc in the tray to play it. With Xbone you're truly free.

I'd maybe quibble with Blu Ray as being more immediate. I've got a 30mb connection now, by my math it would take me about lets call it 2 hours to download a 25GB Blu Ray (actually a 100 minutes if I assume 4MB/s, but that might be a tad optimistic). And I'd hope many games wont actually be a full 25GB. And I'm saving some sort of drive to a retail establishment, as well as being able to buy in the middle of the night on a whim for example (since I am always up at night this is kinda big for me).

 

[Averagejoe]

Then go ahead and use a different analogy. After I ridiculed you for using a car analogy and demonstrated why it was ridiculous you came back and offered YET ANOTHER car analogy.

Do I really have to explain further why the analogy isn't comparative? I've already done so. Do I need to link to you all the thousands of Youtube videos that show why not only car analogies but CD, Movie and used book sales analogies also aren't comparative to video games?

Give me a break.

You did not ridicule me in any way,and there is no need to be upset.

You simple choose to ignore my point,and actually attacked my analogy of cars rather than the point it self,because we know that is you take no good care of your console like you car will fail,this was even more true with the heat prom xbox 360.

But wait the POINT is again having the right to sell your games to who ever you want,when ever you want period,it has been like this for ages,and now MS want to change it.

I have the right to see what i own to who ever i want,and you and MS should dealt with it,for me it will be very simple i have online but i refuse to buy something that step on my rights as the xbox one does.

The sole fact that 3rd parties can kill the game at any time and you lose your investment show how horrible this is,in 20 years i could still play my 360 games if i take care of my stuff,just like i can play my nes,and Snes games today,but how will that work when in 10 years MS does the same it did with xbox live for the original xbox.?

We are not talking about MS dropping online support,we are talking about MS killing xbox one games because it kill the servers and the xbox one need online every 24 hours.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well you install games on 360 now. But you still have to have the disc in the tray to play it. With Xbone you're truly free.

I believe the argument being set forth is that disc-in-the-tray should be an alternative to once-a-day-authentication.

I.e, you lose connection for more than 24 hours, you're only recourse to play games is put the disc in. Then you're no worse off than you are now and for those with immutable connections, they never have to big through the pile of game boxes again - I'm with you on this, btw.

 

[Jwm]

but then we're tethered to a disc, and that annoys me as i hate having to switch discs to switch games.

Personally I've posted this many times, I'm willing to give up used games for no more disc switching. It will be really nice to have a library at my fingertips, to sit down and play what I wish, then play something else without switching discs.

Why are people so accepting of restrictions ala steam, XBLA and PSN, but then involve a trivial spinning piece of plastic and those same restrictions are hitler-esque? It seems arbitrary.

I dont necessarily support these things, but I think their real world effect on me is likely to be extremely limited. Maybe the one that bother me most is no loaning to a friend who hasnt been on your FL for 30 days, and I've done that maybe twice in my life.

I say we need a hyrbid system, X1 as stated when you choose or want to be an online house. Or disc in tray for those that never want to go online, want to travel, etc.

At some point are we not going to see users going DD over retail anyway? If they handle pre-downloads, or you are able to play with only part of the game downloaded people are going to see value of not waiting in line or for the delivery truck.

I really dislike some of the DD models on PC, but one thing the console will have is a much better store. So is the gamble with this setup simply thinking that retail is going to die, used is going to die, and DD will become more prominent?

Used CD stores changed into used movie stores, and now they are dying off as well. Things are probably going to change drastically over the span of these consoles, you can say they are a bit protected and maybe too early for the current market conditions.

Edit: with X1 allowing for so many options, I can't see an easy way around the 1-hour timer or 24-hour home console timer. Granted I am not looking at this from the eyes of a gamer, but since I am online 24/7 including my thermostat it wont hurt me. I think some of these options are really cool, and always wanted the 360 to offer more in this area. It has slowly improved, so this system is a further evolution of things (improved family account, improved DD, etc).

 

[Cranky]

The console is less powerful than the PS4, some critical aspects of its design are based upon the DRM policies, games will probably run at a lower resolution than the PS4, it reserves 3GB for the OS, etc etc.
!

Then is no reason for the games to run at reduced resolution. From a practical standpoint, there isn't that much of a difference from power standpoint. Moreover, if some of the efficiency gains / specialized hardware thoughts are true, the gap is even smaller than 33%. Both consoles are well over the inflection point for 1080P gaming. The difference between the games will likely be something like - ultra shadows versus high, or 8x msaa versus 4x, i.e. trivial IQ differences. XBone might actually have a texture advantage if they really have tiling support as has been suggested. If we were talking 1440P, then the power difference would probably be more meaningful.

I suspect Sony will have substantially similar DRM, at least in effect if not execution. It is what it is, and it results from the business realities of today. To be honest, I don't thing console gaming as we know can survive without these policies, which is why I am OK with the compromises put forth.

 

[AzBat]

Brainfart much? The usage of the expression was accurate.



But wow, it looks like all the DRM-loving folks decided to gang up and fill a thread page with DRM-loving posts overnight (or over-morning, or over-afternoon depending on your timezone).

I can understand the "I can live with that" argument, because some people might prefer being stripped of consumer rights (mainly if they never took advantage of such) than to stay out of their loving platform.
I find that to be an incredibly lazy stance.. one of those that will bite you in the ass later for how lazy you were.. but whatever.

But the "I actually like the DRM" argument?
I actually like that I can't privately resell my used games?
I actually like that I can't freely borrow my games?
I actually like that my console will turn into a brick if my connection goes out for over a day?

Dafuq is wrong with you people? This borders on giving away your self-respect..

So we're lazy & giving up our self-respect now? That's a pompous self-righteous view. I've thought it through logically & in my case the new method gives me enough positives to outweigh the negatives. Do I like DRM? No! Would I like a no-DRM method that still provides those same positives? Hell Yeah! Sorry we don't put as much importance on the things you hold dear. So piss off if you think I'm giving up my self respect.

Tommy McClain

 

[Cjail]

I.e, you lose connection for more than 24 hours, you're only recourse to play games is put the disc in. Then you're no worse off than you are now and for those with immutable connections, they never have to big through the pile of game boxes again - I'm with you on this, btw.

Unless I am reading MS info all wrong you can use mobile broadband for authentication as well.

 

[expletive]

Unless I am reading MS info all wrong you can use mobile broadband for authentication as well.

Of course, your XBO doesn't know if the wifi hotspot is a phone or router.