XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[expletive]

I think Mr Fox explained perfectly what ownership means here in Europe, in USA, and so on:

A software Eula can grant a license instead of ownership, it depends on the Eula. I don't know what the Eula reads like for all console games but if it only grants a license, first sale doctrine doesn't apply.

The fact that you could sell something you didn't own was simply a loophole in the distribution technology.

 

[XpiderMX]

Extract of an article from an American webpage -I think-, which talks about the cloud -nothing to do with Xbone- and mentions the ownership thing.



Read more: http://www.articlesnatch.com/Article/Video-Game-Evolution--Cloud-Gaming/4525124#ixzz2VZWX8lDB

And:

Despite its initial flaws, it seems likely that cloud gaming will be an important development for the video game industry. It has a great deal of potential and really fits in with the variety of internet-based services that are now the norm.

 

[Cyan]

Don't make a straw man, no one claimed when I buy a game in the store that I own the IP and can sell it via copies. But I do "own" the disc I"m holding. I can resell it, gift it and lend it. Maybe you want that to change, but lots of people don't.

bkilian is right. The contents of the disc are copyrighted in most cases.

The physical disc is yours as Mr. Fox pointed out already, but the data is an entirely different matter.

In the end you sell a physical disc, not a license.

 

[Scott_Arm]

No. Steam and Origin are means of distribution for the PC platform.
Braid is a game that can be bought on either Steam or GOG. That doesn't make it a multiplatform title.

Whatever you and I think is the future of distribution for software isn't a valid reason to force stuff down the consumers' throat, unwillingly.

I'm still failing to see the difference from business, consumer or ethical standpoints. They all sell games in the same industry and they all distribute games with DRM. As a consumer you evaluate where to spend your money based on price, value and I suppose ethics. Choosing to buy a PC and Steam games is no different from buying a PS4 and PS4 games. There are more choices for distribution on pc but it's fundamentally the same. If you don't like PS4 buy something else. If you don't like PC buy something else. I don't understand why anyone is more upset about Xbox One than Steam. No one is forcing you to buy from either. Why does Steam get a free pass because it isn't operating in the same form factor?

 

[XpiderMX]

A software Eula can grant a license instead of ownership, it depends on the Eula. I don't know what the Eula reads like for all console games but if it only grants a license, first sale doctrine doesn't apply.

The fact that you could sell something you didn't own was simply a loophole in the distribution technology.

For Sega games:

2. LIMITED USE LICENSE

Subject to your compliance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement, SEGA hereby grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited right and license to install and use one (1) copy of the Game Software solely and exclusively for your personal and non-commercial use. This Agreement shall also apply to any patches or updates you may obtain for the Software. IN ACCORDANCE WITH AND NOT INTENDING TO LIMIT ANY OF THE PROVISIONS OR PROTECTIONS SET FORTH HEREIN, DUPLICATION, COPYING OR ANY FORM OF REPRODUCTION OF THE GAME SOFTWARE OR RELATED INFORMATION, MATERIALS OR OTHER CONTENT TO ANY OTHER SERVER OR LOCATION FOR THE PURPOSES OF DUPLICATION, COPYING OR ANY OTHER FORM OF REPRODUCTION IS EXPRESSLY AND EXPLICITLY PROHIBITED. This license does not give you any title or ownership in the Game Software, and should not be construed as a sale or transfer of any intellectual property rights to the Game Software. All rights not specifically granted under this Agreement are hereby reserved by Sega and, as applicable, by its licensors.

http://www.sega.com/eula/

For Take Two games:

LICENSE CONDITIONS
You agree not to:

1. Commercially exploit the Software;
2. Distribute, lease, license, sell, rent or otherwise transfer or assign the Software, or any copies of the Software, without the express prior written consent of Licensor or as set forth in this Agreement;
3. Make a copy of the Software or any part thereof (other than as set forth herein);
4. Making a copy of this Software available on a network for use or download by multiple users;
5. Except as otherwise specifically provided by the Software or this Agreement, use or install the Software (or permit others to do same) on a network, for on-line use, or on more than one computer or gaming unit at the same time;
6. Copy the Software onto a hard drive or other storage device in order to bypass the requirement to run the Software from the included CD-ROM or DVD-ROM (this prohibition does not apply to copies in whole or in part that may be made by the Software itself during installation in order to run more efficiently);
7. use or copy the Software at a computer gaming center or any other location-based site; provided, that Licensor may offer you a separate site license agreement to make the Software available for commercial use;.
8. Reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble, prepare derivative works based on or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;
9. Remove or modify any proprietary notices, marks or labels contained on or within the Software; and
10. transport, export or re-export (directly or indirectly) into any country forbidden to receive such Software by any U.S. export laws or accompanying regulations or otherwise violate such laws or regulations, that may be amended from time to time.

http://www.take2games.com/eula/

 

[AlphaWolf]

But that's not the point, Alphawolf. Mr Average doesn't want the hassle, he wants somethign that works.

Nothing about this won't work for him, it'll probably add convenience over a steam or smartphone product. It's a bonus. You keep trying to pass off forum ragers as the average, they aren't.

I'm sure some of you will rage and fight for years, but you won't win because Mr. Average can't be bothered to give a damn if madden 2012 still works after he bought Madden 2015. The people put out by this system make up a small minority, maybe they'll rage long and loud enough to make a difference, but I doubt it.

 

[expletive]

For Sega games:



http://www.sega.com/eula/

For Take Two games:



http://www.take2games.com/eula/

There ya go... What confuses me though is how GameStop has been pocketing billions by doing this?

Bkillian??

Nothing about this won't work for him, it'll probably add convenience over a steam or smartphone product. It's a bonus. You keep trying to pass off forum ragers as the average, they aren't.

I'm sure some of you will rage (the used game/paranoid) and fight for years, but you won't win because Mr. Average can't be bothered to give a damn if madden 2012 still works after he bought Madden 2015. The people put out by this system make up a small minority, maybe they'll rage long and loud enough to make a difference, but I doubt it.

Those who rage weren't really moving the needle anyway in terms of sales right? Publishers are the ones who have to care and the only one technically losing sales would be GameStop. So the great irony would be that the forum rangers rangers would be putting GameStop out of business, the ones who started this in the first place ?!?!

Edit: sorry shifty, thought I was there...

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

But that's not the point, Alphawolf. Mr Average doesn't want the hassle, he wants somethign that works.

Yes, and I think that's the key point that MS has been demonstrating and is the hallmark of their entire strategy with the One.

It will, simply, Just Work. Whether you buy the game at the store, or download it digitally, it automatically installs to the cloud and you can access it from any One console anywhere in the world as long as there is a broadband connection and you log in with your account.

It Just Works.

You are completely, 100% correct. Joe Average just wants something that works.

It's the gamer that cares about DRM and reselling games and all the peripheral issues that are being sacrificed for ease of use for Joe Average.

MS clearly believes they can be more profitable with a smaller gaming user base. It seems that they believe the days of "Install Base Wars" are over and it's not about the number of customers you have, but how much each of those customers are worth.

All the things the gaming user base is complaining about are actually results of features that are being provided to attract more Joe Averages because it will Just Work.

 

[Cyan]

A software Eula can grant a license instead of ownership, it depends on the Eula. I don't know what the Eula reads like for all console games but if it only grants a license, first sale doctrine doesn't apply.

The fact that you could sell something you didn't own was simply a loophole in the distribution technology.

My first Windows OS was also my first software EULA. I never lent the disc, never traded it in -I still have the disc in a box-.

But in the case of games, we are used to give games the same treatment as music. I see a lot of second hand CDs and stuff in specialized stores.

Unless I am mistaken the films industry has had a huge problem with piracy.

Yet, save the Megaupload -was it?- thing, which I was happy with, it has never suffered the prosecution games (or gamers) are suddenly suffering with these measures.

People aren't going to sell quality products. If developers give them a good product, any excellent game is going to sell really well.

If it doesn't sell is not always because of piracy, it's down to it being a poor product, or both.

Now, if Sony and Nintendo take the first turn to the right and Microsoft take the turn to the left, it just goes to show there is no consensus.

There has to be a solution to piracy other than selling licenses to people.

You shouldn't treat the just as sinners. That's how I feel.

I mean, I have always paid for ownership. -ask Microsoft, my Gamertag is in my B3D account for them to see-

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I don't see how this has anything to do with piracy, it has to do with game rentals and used game sales.

I'm extremely surprised there isn't far more internet rage about the fact that MS has said there will be no ability to rent games for the One at launch because the capability doesn't exist, won't exist and there is no promise it will exist in the future.

To me, I would think game rentals would impact far more gamers than used games. Of course, the mechanism in the past used to be the same. The fact that they are now able to restrict that method and are allowing publishers to choose to allow one (game sales or license transfers, if you will), while making no bones about the far more likely elimination of the rental market is a bigger issue, IMO.

And I've purchased more games used this generation than I have rented, but in past generations that wasn't the case.

 

[pc999]

YES, this is likely to happen in the EU. They are going to get sued here, most probably. And I am going to sign it. I want you SUED Microsoft.

Point is... there should be NO need for the Xbone to keep checking that you are online, licensed to use a game etc. It adds anything of real value for the user.

I hadn't, but had I pre-ordered the console I'd cancel my pre-order to show my solidarity with other people.

I am genuinely interested in the console, have always been, that's the saddest part. It is Microsoft who don't want me to fancy it.

Superb article Eurogamer, you have gained a new fan over this forever.

Yes EU should sue them!!! Even Time (mag) is against them on this.

http://techland.time.com/2013/06/07/microsofts-xbox-one-used-games-policies-are-clear-as-mud/

 

[Cyan]

Yes, and I think that's the key point that MS has been demonstrating and is the hallmark of their entire strategy with the One.

It will, simply, Just Work. Whether you buy the game at the store, or download it digitally, it automatically installs to the cloud and you can access it from any One console anywhere in the world as long as there is a broadband connection and you log in with your account.

It Just Works.

You are completely, 100% correct. Joe Average just wants something that works.

It's the gamer that cares about DRM and reselling games and all the peripheral issues that are being sacrificed for ease of use for Joe Average.

MS clearly believes they can be more profitable with a smaller gaming user base. It seems that they believe the days of "Install Base Wars" are over and it's not about the number of customers you have, but how much each of those customers are worth.

All the things the gaming user base is complaining about are actually results of features that are being provided to attract more Joe Averages because it will Just Work.

Hmmmm, nice point there. Microsoft have always had quality customers, ask former developers like joker454 and others, how many games the average X360 gamer used to buy every year.

Still, a good install base is important if your console isn't pirated -PS3 for instance-, word of mouth does wonders when the market stalls and even if you only sell a piece of your hardware, everything counts.

Then you just have to make your users "need" you.

Best Bill Gates sentence ever!! imho

I lived this when I knew dependence in certain phase of my life.

If you make someone need you, that person doesn't have a voice, he/she is a puppet in your hands. You are completely overshadowing a person.

I am not saying that's what Microsoft should do, but you need to attract them to your service and make people somewhat dependent on it.

Maybe if Bill Gates was still CEO what is happening now would never happen.

 

[XpiderMX]

I guess it is not about piracy, it is about software rights, is supposed publishers are not selling you the game, they are selling you the right for playing the game (licence).

 

[Cyan]

Nothing about this won't work for him, it'll probably add convenience over a steam or smartphone product. It's a bonus. You keep trying to pass off forum ragers as the average, they aren't.

I'm sure some of you will rage and fight for years, but you won't win because Mr. Average can't be bothered to give a damn if madden 2012 still works after he bought Madden 2015. The people put out by this system make up a small minority, maybe they'll rage long and loud enough to make a difference, but I doubt it.

The console works, sure, but my point was that the average Mr Man might feel confused one day because for some reason the console refused to work after a storm fried his router or whatever, or when he pays grandma a visit and lugs the console with him to find out that there is no internet present and then he can't play his games.

What Microsoft are doing has the potential to affect the future of gaming, and some people are really concerned about the future of it.

It all kinds of wrong on so many levels. I hope the Virtual Machine thing works, because I can see that once the console lifespan is over the Xbox One could get the plug pulled.

Also not being able to turn offline mode on like other services makes no sense. If the disc is in the tray, then why not?

This is your typical corporation greed and control, and publishers are salivating at the thought it seems.

 

[Cyan]

Yes EU should sue them!!! Even Time (mag) is against them on this.

http://techland.time.com/2013/06/07/microsofts-xbox-one-used-games-policies-are-clear-as-mud/

Yup, there is more and more editorials on the matter.

Forbes: "Microsoft's Shortsighted Approach Might Have Already Killed Xbox One"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/06/06/microsofts-shortsighted-approach-might-have-already-killed-xbox-one/

Metro UK: "Xbox One and the corporate war against consumers"

http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/07/xbox-one-and-the-corporate-war-against-consumers-3832082/

Nowgamer: Xbox One: It's For Publishers, Not For You

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1955108/xbox_one_its_for_publishers_not_for_you.html

 

[Strange]

I'm opening up the prospect of some people DDOS attacking the Microsoft authentication servers and pissing off all Xbox One customers on the first week.

This is the major problem that I have with the 24 hr online requirement.

I do not want their servers to work before I can play my games unless the online portion is actually a part of the game.

 

[Tap In]

Depends on your view of economic theory, if you assume that spending on games is fixed, redirecting that so it's focussed on games you get a return for is a win, even if the market doesn't expand.
If you assume the fixed pool of money is for "entertainment" then you potentially loose some portion of it because of opportunity.

I honestly think the bulk of MS' decisions here have nothing to do with piracy (excluding not creating easily exploited loop holes for it) or used games. I think it's probably down to how they believe the console should function i.e. not requiring disks, and equivalent functionality no matter the mode of purchase.
IME MS is usually a slave to their high level visions, often making unpopular decisions to see them through, this one I happen to think has merit, I think in the end the convenience will outweigh the cost (not talking monetary) for endusers.

that's how I see it as well.

I'll add in I think they want to have the cloud used and tell devs there are 100% Live users and if connected, media sales will increase as well.

 

[Cyan]

I'm opening up the prospect of some people DDOS attacking the Microsoft authentication servers and pissing off all Xbox One customers on the first week.

This is the major problem that I have with the 24 hr online requirement.

I do not want their servers to work before I can play my games unless the online portion is actually a part of the game.

I have a feeling it is going to be the most attacked console ever. Not good when you are interested in it. I am... but at the same time I can't wait for the EU court of justice to get them sued before they launch the console here.

Plus, it will be the one console hackers will try to get pirated the most, just for the challenge. Maybe they are going to find a way to remove the 24 hours check timer at least.

 

[temesgen]

I have a feeling it is going to be the most attacked console ever. Not good when you are interested in it. I am... but at the same time I can't wait for the EU court of justice to get them sued before they launch the console here.

Plus, it will be the one console hackers will try to get pirated the most, just for the challenge. Maybe they are going to find a way to remove the 24 hours check timer at least.

It can't be hacked, we got in depth info yesterday that XB1's 3 OS system would never be compromised.

 

[Strange]

It can't be hacked, we got in depth info yesterday that XB1's 3 OS system would never be compromised.

The impenetrable system from Microsoft.