XBox One, PS4, DRM, and You

[ERP]

But isn't this crazy? They say that they need this because of the all the piracy, i.e. they lose money. They say they need this because of all the used used game sales, i.e. they lose money.

And now your first reaction is: easy, no problem...I just don't buy that much games anymore. And I guess a lot of people will react that way. But as a consequence...they'll sell way less games. i.e. lose money.

Depends on your view of economic theory, if you assume that spending on games is fixed, redirecting that so it's focussed on games you get a return for is a win, even if the market doesn't expand.
If you assume the fixed pool of money is for "entertainment" then you potentially loose some portion of it because of opportunity.

I honestly think the bulk of MS' decisions here have nothing to do with piracy (excluding not creating easily exploited loop holes for it) or used games. I think it's probably down to how they believe the console should function i.e. not requiring disks, and equivalent functionality no matter the mode of purchase.
IME MS is usually a slave to their high level visions, often making unpopular decisions to see them through, this one I happen to think has merit, I think in the end the convenience will outweigh the cost (not talking monetary) for endusers.

 

[RobertR1]

Day n date blockbusters on Steam are generally similar in pricing to retail console games, however I've yet to see an uproar on that piece.

 

[pc999]

Dont know if it is posted, but if you want (I will just no buy their consoles/games and bash them everytime it is in converse, if it is the case).

http://www.ps4nodrm.com/

http://www.xboxonenodrm.com/

 

[Davros]

Day n date blockbusters on Steam are generally similar in pricing to retail console games, however I've yet to see an uproar on that piece.

oh, theres been complaints about devs on steam being greedy buggers....

I think in the end the convenience will outweigh the cost (not talking monetary) for endusers.

The cost appears to be time limited games, if thats the case i dont think anything is worth that cost

 

[joker454]

Eurogamers take on the MS 'clarifications... Not pretty reading but not a knee jerk reaction either. Though I can't say the same thing for the comments!

Nice, it's actually better than I expected. Hundreds of millions of people have already accepted more restrictive setups on phones, tablets and Steam pc gaming so to me this is pretty good. I wish Steam and phones would follow Microsoft's lead and allow game/app trading as well, maybe this will pressure them to do that. I have a ton of Steam games that just sit there unused now that I'm done with them, I'd love to be able to trade them to others and get other stuff in return.

 

[Billy Idol]

It's not crazy if (a) SONY applies similar restrictions and/or (b) Microsoft is very confident of having enough high-quality exclusive games to make people buy their system (and games) irrespective of their DRM policy.

Only if both (a) and (b) turn out to be false, Microsoft is in trouble.

Option (c) is that they simply don't (have to) care too much about selling as many games as possible as they deliberately shifted their focus to a broader business approach (in which games make only a small part of their expected revenue).

... and all above-mentioned options will turn out completely invalid in case Valve announces to release Half-Life 3 exclusively on their "Steam Box"

It is also crazy if Sony does this imo.

 

[Billy Idol]

Nice, it's actually better than I expected. Hundreds of millions of people have already accepted more restrictive setups on phones, tablets and Steam pc gaming so to me this is pretty good. I wish Steam and phones would follow Microsoft's lead and allow game/app trading as well, maybe this will pressure them to do that. I have a ton of Steam games that just sit there unused now that I'm done with them, I'd love to be able to trade them to others and get other stuff in return.

But you could potentially lose the Steam sales and Alan Wake for 3Euros etc etc

So you could sell your Steam games, but only full price are available.

You can't get both, right?

Does itunes have sales?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I honestly think the bulk of MS' decisions here have nothing to do with piracy (excluding not creating easily exploited loop holes for it) or used games. I think it's probably down to how they believe the console should function i.e. not requiring disks, and equivalent functionality no matter the mode of purchase.

To me, it's obvious these decisions are solely based on some study they made about extracting the maximum amount of money from their customers (which is why the greediest publishers are so excited about F2P).

DRM/piracy is just the alibi they tell publishers, no-disc and the possibility of fire-sales is the alibi they tell customers, exclusivity on selling used games is the alibi they tell retailers.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I suppose I'm one of the pitchfork guys I wouldn't use Steam myself, and I wouldn't even call that a console, it'd be a PC that can run Steam. There's nothing to argue about, Steam's DRM scheme is a necessity against piracy, because you can't expect them to offer a copy protected media like a real console does. It's games-as-a-service basically. The cost of games on Steam is also low enough that most consider it very fair. Just like the $10 games on PS or Xbox Store.

Now that Microsoft made their move, if Sony isn't any better, I'll be very mad, but I'll give up completely. The vote-with-your-money principle can only work when a better alternative exists. Either different games on the same console that are giving me the value/convenience I'm satisfied with, or a different console having a better policy. It only works if there's enough choice and the industry doesn't collude to prevent the choice from existing. Laws could help, but these digital schemes are precisely made to circumvent the laws which were written to protect consumers.

The fact that steam runs on a PC is really not relevent. They're both gaming platforms. The change now is that PS4 and Xbox One are going to install games to the HDD by default. Gamers want to be able to play without discs and access their games everywhere they go. How do you do that? You come up with ways to make sure people can't endlessly and easily copy their games onto all of their friends' consoles.

The Steam pricing is always another thing people bring up, but games aren't released at $10, as RobertR1 said. They launch at something like console retail price. Also, Microsoft is not controlling pricing this time around. They're letting the publishers set their own prices, so they should have the same flexibility to change their price as they do on Steam.

There are thousands of options in terms of "voting with your money" between $0 and thousands of dollars. If you reduce your expenditure from one gen to the next by half, then that's sending them a signal. Or you could just quit gaming, plain and simple.

 

[joker454]

But you could potentially lose the Steam sales and Alan Wake for 3Euros etc etc

So you could sell your Steam games, but only full price are available.

You can't get both, right?

Does itunes have sales?

That's a valid point actually, it could affect Steam sales. I don't know about iTunes as I don't have any iOS devices anymore. Right now though because of Steam's restrictions I generally don't buy anything there unless it's in the $5 to $15 range because once you bought it that's it, no selling, no trading, nothing. With Xb1 though I'd be comfortable spending more since every digital game purchase there is basically two games in one. I get the original game, and the game I'll be trading it for. If Steam followed suit then their having less sales wouldn't affect me as much because I'd be willing to spend more since my games aren't as locked down as they are now. Realistically it's probably not enough to get me to go back to consoles for gaming, but I do kinda wish Steam and phones would follow Microsoft's lead here and let people trade apps. Maybe those two platforms can get away without it though since their digital content is so cheap whereas digital content on consoles has historically been comparatively very expensive.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

That has an unintended consequence, if MSFT let publishers do whatever they want Sony has to match MSFT policies, either negociating exclusives games, lot of them, even time exclusive is going to be a walk in the park for MSFT

This. Except, what makes you think this is an unintended consequence? If Sony doesn't have a similar DRM restriction, you can bet that MS has already discussed the issue with publishers and has already worked out deals to provide their product with an offsetting benefit.

I'm sure publishers would be more than happy to give MS limited exclusivity in return for the knowledge there is no used or rental game market unless the publisher themselves decides to allow it - and at what cost.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

To me, it makes zero sense to bring up Steam.

If PC gaming is a platform, Steam is one of the many choices available for that platform.
In the PC, we all have the choice of buying a retail game, buying through Steam with its DRM or even buying through digital download without DRM (GOG).

I can choose to buy one game through Steam because it costs 75% less in a fire-sale and I can choose to buy another game through retail because I want the Platinum Edition with a bundled T-shirt. The Steam version was cheap, the retail gives me a physical medium which I can trust to install and play whenever the zombies take over the world and the internets go down.

The xbone offers no such choice. Whatever comes inside every retail package becomes meaningless because all that matters is a digital signature linked to an e-mail account.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You do so have the choice. Games do not stay at full retail on consoles.

 

[MrFox]

There are thousands of options in terms of "voting with your money" between $0 and thousands of dollars. If you reduce your expenditure from one gen to the next by half, then that's sending them a signal. Or you could just quit gaming, plain and simple.

Yeah, but the only remaining platforms that still allows untethered and unconditional ownership (the thing for which I am voting-with-my-money) are the "real" consoles. I don't want to break the industry by not buying games, it's the wrong path and it will not recover. The message will be very clear if games without DRM make more money than games with aggressive DRM, it will happen very quickly or not at all (depending on how gamers agree with me). Vita and PS3 day-1-digital gave me the choice to make an unequivocal statement with my money. They can compare sales of carts versus digital.

Not buying games will make them blame the smartphones. They are that stupid and will take a decade to recover, that is, if they recover. If the console is designed from the start to rely on a remote server for any game, there's nothing left to fight for and I lost my preference until the next generation. How do I help avoiding that?

 

[joker454]

To me, it makes zero sense to bring up Steam.

I bring up Steam only to show that as a digital content provider they have now fallen behind their competition in terms of flexibility.

The xbone offers no such choice. Whatever comes inside every retail package becomes meaningless because all that matters is a digital signature linked to an e-mail account.

Right but some people like me want it that way. I don't want physical anything anymore. I want a fully digital forward compatible platform that I can bounce around my content at will on any of my devices and trade them with friends, and have it all managed by the host provider. The most interesting thing about the XB1 to me is that is goes with vm's for the apps. To me that hints at some point in the future all XB1 content will be executable on other devices. That's because I'm not buying physical content tied to one machine, an obsolete practice in my mind, I'm buying a license to use a digital product on all supporting devices. That's the direction I want things to go and to me anything else is a step back. Yes to have that possible means drm checks otherwise you get situations like with DirecTV where 3 neighbors all share the same dish while paying for just one account. I'm fine with drm checks as long as I get everything all digital, forward compatible, sharable on my other devices and tradable with others. Steam gives me most of that but not all, Microsoft has taken it to the next step and I feel that will pressure Steam to follow, and who knows maybe Apple and others. I get that you don't like it, that's totally fine and there are other options available to you. Or if you don't have reliable internet where you live then likewise you should move on to a different product, XB1 is not for you. But some people, myself included, want things to go in the direction that Microsoft is taking it. It's the natural evolution to an all digital shareable world. As others have said the best thing you can do is vote with your wallets.

 

[Scott_Arm]

To me, it makes zero sense to bring up Steam.

If PC gaming is a platform, Steam is one of the many choices available for that platform.
In the PC, we all have the choice of buying a retail game, buying through Steam with its DRM or even buying through digital download without DRM (GOG).

I can choose to buy one game through Steam because it costs 75% less in a fire-sale and I can choose to buy another game through retail because I want the Platinum Edition with a bundled T-shirt. The Steam version was cheap, the retail gives me a physical medium which I can trust to install and play whenever the zombies take over the world and the internets go down.

The xbone offers no such choice. Whatever comes inside every retail package becomes meaningless because all that matters is a digital signature linked to an e-mail account.

Xbox One is a platform. Steam is a platform. EA Origin is a platform. Your choice is to buy Xbox hardware, Sony hardware or PC hardware. Steam is absolutely no different. I'm not sure how someone could sit at home angry at Xbox One while buying games on Steam, iOS Appstore, EA Origin or Google Play etc. Right or wrong, the reality is that all of the platforms are going to digital distribution, and this gen for consoles will be a half-measure.

 

[-tkf-]

All this negativity yet they are apparently breaking pre-order records, just goes to show really.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/xbox-one-hits-amazon-as-console-breaks-pre-order-records-50011346/

Breaking PR barriers seems more believable....

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-06-07-microsoft-kills-game-ownership-and-expects-us-to-smile

What a clusterfuck

You do not own the games you buy. You license them.
Discs are only used to install and then license games and do not imply ownership.
People can play games installed on your console whether you're logged in or not.
10 people can be authorised to play these games on a different Xbox One via the cloud, but not at the same time, similar to iTunes authorised devices.
Publishers decide whether you can trade in your games and may charge for this.
Publishers decide whether you can give a game you own to someone for free, and this only works if they have been on your friends list for 30 days.
Your account allows you to play the games you license on any console.
Your Xbox One must connect to the internet every 24 hours to keep playing games.
When playing on another Xbox One with your account, this is reduced to one hour.
Live TV, Blu-ray and DVD movies are exempt from these internet requirements.
Loaning and renting games will not be possible at launch, but Microsoft is "exploring the possibilities".
Microsoft may change these policies or discontinue them at any point.

Hello to thanks but no thanks, it's basicly a list of things feared from the start. On top of it all is the lack of ownership of something i BOUGHT.. i hope that the EU will sue Microsoft into hell until they give in.
And the same goes for Sony of course if they are as mindless and stupid and introduces the same crap..

I really REALLY hope that the gaming press will drop everything and simply will give them hell until they understand that they can give up on this or live without PR (as if.. ) Neither Sony or Microsoft should get through with this..

Seem that my early purchase of the BroSolo from Microsoft has been postponed until they wake up and smell the freaking coffee.. such a let down..

 

[temesgen]

I been thinking about the used game situation for the next generation the last few days and wanted to share my thoughts.

There is a lot of money made by companies like Gamestop who buy these games for next to nothing and resell them to other people for incredible profits. Personally I prefer to see this money go to the developers and or the person selling the game.

With that said it would great if platform holders built a voluntary marketplace where consumers could choose to opt in and buy and sell their games without the draconian restrictions of DRM or if they prefer walk into a Gamestop and transact as they do now. The key being choice.

How might that work? If publishers gave consumers a printed key that they registered their game with at the point of installation, it could be transferable virtually or in person at brick and mortar stores. So consumers could trade it in or upload the key to a virtual marketplace online in exchange for cash or even possibly trade with other individuals if I have something that they want and vice versa. A true marketplace would allow the producers of content to even compete with resellers for the fee, prices could in theory at least change everyday if not hourly much like a stock market. The difference being that the supply would not be limited but producers of content might not want to see their IP sold at a low price and buy it back much like companies do today with stock to keep prices higher than they would be otherwise. Also without all the logistics of getting media from point a to b and the margins associated prices might come down quicker on new releases - I could even see publishers dropping prices to compete with other IPs that are not selling well. The key is that a true marketplace would help the money go to where it should and it could do so in a way that didn't violate my consumer rights.

MS's implementation has all sorts of qualifiers and fine print and most of all it takes the choice away from me the consumer to choose how I want to handle my license.

Edit:

You could even see discounts of some sort for preordering which could really be exciting for developers who need funding but don't want to get stuck with EA or Activision or work there now and want to go independent... lots to consider with this sort of an approach, its kickstarter/NasDAQ/gamestop hybrid....

Edit2: how about DLC that was truly limited edition; buy this Elderscroll dungeon now only 20k will sold.....

 

[Billy Idol]

You do so have the choice. Games do not stay at full retail on consoles.

That is true for this gen. Next gen?

 

[-tkf-]

I just preordered the next LEGO game from amazon.. tell me how i will be able to buy any game on the XBONE that will not require STEAM.. ehmm sorry Microsoft's activation servers to run?

On the PC i actually have choices, hell i can usually buy the games from more than one DD distributor. I can just choose to go the Disc route (screw the activation servers). On the XBONE i can choose not to buy it, or in many cases buy the PC version, and again have choices.. There is no alternative to the activation server hell on the XBONE.

Sony will very likely have to do just as the publishers want (i hope they just tell them to fuck off and go another platform). But they have alot of exclusives that they publish and from what they are saying those games will be actually OWNED by those that buy them..