Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

[zupallinere]

The only reason to up the RAM IMHO is if it helps both the App OS and the Game OS and that ONLY if it is going go to fix a problem. MS isn't going to increase the price so they will be eating a bit more on each system. To do all of that just to make some hardcore gamers happy beggars belief. This is a Lifestyle Box not a gaming rig

The XB1 will sell quite well and lots of people are going to enjoy using it. They don't need to bump up anything and I don't think they will in the end.

 

[BeyondTed]

The only reason to up the RAM IMHO is if it helps both the App OS and the Game OS and that ONLY if it is going go to fix a problem. MS isn't going to increase the price so they will be eating a bit more on each system. To do all of that just to make some hardcore gamers happy beggars belief. This is a Lifestyle Box not a gaming rig

I am not sure. If big name publishers all went to MS and said that the amount of RAM available to them is a big issue they might listen.

Especially they might listen after finding out later that PS4 will have 2x or 4x the original 2GB or 4GB they were expecting.

I don't think it beggars belief at all if the publishers did indeed ask for it. After all DDR3 at least makes the memory pretty cheap per GB.

I don't think the argument rests on some hardcore gamers.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Yeah - but why not just test the ones with the actual finalized (beta) board? It just doesn't make much sense to me to still test versions of the board that aren't going into production. But I'm probably missing something - I don't know a thing about this stuff.

You want to test multiple units of the same revisions because potential problems and defects are not likely to exist in 100% of machines. Hence just testing one unit wouldn't tell you if it will be a widespread problem or a problem affecting only a small minority of machines.

If you test 100 machines and 50 of them have an issue that's far more serious than if you test 100 machines and only 1 of them has some sort of failure. If you only test one machine. Then is it representative of the 99 machines or 1 machine from the previous example?

And in all cases you can then compare the machines with problems to the machines without problems to further isolate and quantify what exactly is going wrong and whether something needs to be changed or manufactured differently (perhaps too much manufacturing variance, for instance).

The only reason to up the RAM IMHO is if it helps both the App OS and the Game OS and that ONLY if it is going go to fix a problem. MS isn't going to increase the price so they will be eating a bit more on each system. To do all of that just to make some hardcore gamers happy beggars belief. This is a Lifestyle Box not a gaming rig

The XB1 will sell quite well and lots of people are going to enjoy using it. They don't need to bump up anything and I don't think they will in the end.

Or due to developer pressure. Xbox 360 had its ram allocation doubled very late in the development cycle due entirely to developer pressure. If there is similar developer pressure happening here, then there's a good chance Microsoft would increase the memory pool. Especially if developer feedback is indicating that it is the #1 reasons they may not be able to have feature parity between Xbox One and PS4.

Sony increased RAM allocation for the same reasons, so it shouldn't be a surprise if Microsoft also does it if it is feasible and being requested by a large number of developers as the #1 thing they would need to achieve parity or near parity with PS4.

If no developers are pushing for it, then it obviously won't happen as there would be no incentive for MS to increase it.

Regards,
SB

 

[zupallinere]

I am not sure. If big name publishers all went to MS and said that the amount of RAM available to them is a big issue they might listen.

Especially they might listen after finding out later that PS4 will have 2x or 4x the original 2GB or 4GB they were expecting.

I don't think it beggars belief at all if the publishers did indeed ask for it. After all DDR3 at least makes the memory pretty cheap per GB.

I don't think the argument rests on some hardcore gamers.

Agreed if EA etc say that MS needs an extra 4 gigs I am sure MS will do their best to oblige.

 

[zupallinere]

Or due to developer pressure. Xbox 360 had its ram allocation doubled very late in the development cycle due entirely to developer pressure. If there is similar developer pressure happening here, then there's a good chance Microsoft would increase the memory pool. Especially if developer feedback is indicating that it is the #1 reasons they may not be able to have feature parity between Xbox One and PS4.

Now there is a bit of difference between doubling the RAM to hit parity and adding 4 gigs to make up for a 1-2 gig delta. I'm not disagreeing here I am wondering just what devs and publishers would be saying about that 1-2 gig difference when it comes to their abilities to come close to parity. 6 less CUs not a problem but 1 gig BIG problem. We will see and if MS does up the RAM it will be interesting to see how much the Game OS gets and what that says about the future direction of devs thinking when it comes to game development.

Of course it could be a combo of a computational and memory deficits but I am kind of just going by the general tenor here.

 

[eastmen]

They could of course depending on cost go with 16 gigs of ram. You could balloon up the other stuff from 3 gigs to 8 gigs and still provide more ram than the competition for pure gaming.

The extra ram could be used for tombstone-ing programs

 

[BeyondTed]

They could of course depending on cost go with 16 gigs of ram. You could balloon up the other stuff from 3 gigs to 8 gigs and still provide more ram than the competition for pure gaming.

The extra ram could be used for tombstone-ing programs

Crytek wanted 32GB. (I don't think we will see anything remotely like that, way out there.)

"Memory is the single most important thing that is always going to be underbalanced - I've never seen a console where the memory was the right balance.

"Xbox 360, underbalanced. PlayStation 3, underbalanced. Simply because memory is the most expensive part, hence I wish there would be cheaper ways of doing memory so that memory doesn't become an issue anymore."

He added: "If they find ways to cheapen the cost to a degree they could triple or quadruple their memory. Just say, 'Hey we're going to have 32 gigs of memory'. That would be quite amazing because memory can do so many more techniques and tricks."

Last year Crytek's R&D principal graphics engineer, Tiago Sousa, said he'd really like to see next-gen consoles feature a minimum of 8GB" of RAM.

"My finger-pointing at Microsoft/Sony would really be on the memory side. It's way too low, and the biggest crippling factor from a visual perspective," he added.

Not sure what the others asked for. Don't know why he says "because memory can do so many more techniques and tricks".

 

[Boxercide]

Crytek wanted 32GB.

You realize your quote contradicts what you say here? Do you have a link to anything that says 32? I've read the interview where he wants at least 8.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You realize your quote contradicts what you say here? Do you have a link to anything that says 32? I've read the interview where he wants at least 8.

Well he says 32 would be amazing but at a minimum 8. So I think he'd be happier with more than 8.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

Agreed if EA etc say that MS needs an extra 4 gigs I am sure MS will do their best to oblige.

hmmmm, maybe so, they still are good friends with Epic. which could also be why mark rein threw in getting an Xbox one as an alternative to a power PC in a recent statement.

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speaking of which, Diving into the Pre May 21st rumor -

It seems the latest info has leaked out regarding the Xbox Now! system, and it shows that the specs for Now! are even higher then previous rumors claimed!

We are almost at the big event date of May 21st, when under the big tent that Microsoft has setup, we will learn all about the new Xbox Now! console, and just ahead of that event some more information has leaked out, showing that the specs. are very nice.

* There is now a full 12 gigabytes of high-speed RAM in the new Xbox Now! console, unlike the previous rumors of only 8gb.
* To be precise, there is 4gb GDDR5 on the GPU and 8gb GDDR5 on the 8-Core IBM custom CPU.
* The GPU is the first GCN 2.0 GPU produced and was designed by special team of MS+IBM+AMD.
* Eric from IBM will be a speaker on the 21st. with more info like the fact the GPU specs. are a mindblogging 4.9 TFlops.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58138440&postcount=1

Could the supposed pre-May 21st rumor be based on this PC;

thinking that this was the xbox one? It had 12 gbs of memory and was above 4 Tflops.

 

[warb]

But "8gb GDDR5 on the 8-Core IBM custom CPU." Would make no sense at all, having separate GDDR5 for system memory, introducing unnecessary latency at more expense.

 

[COPS N RAPPERS]

I'm not exactly saying whether if it links anywhere near to the final console, but they do seem to match up with the alpha or beta kits that were used. which is why i was thinking that the rumor could have been correct but misinterpreted as being the XB1.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

thought alpha kits had intel xenon processors?

and to be honest, that reads more like something from misterxmedia/mistercteam and their loonies then some one credible.

 

[BeyondTed]

You realize your quote contradicts what you say here? Do you have a link to anything that says 32? I've read the interview where he wants at least 8.

Do you realize that you can't read? It is a quote of what Cevat Yerli says. Not what I say. Out of his mouth the number 32 GB came out. Go read the interview:

Original Source: http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/c...essors_will_impact_next-gen_specs_crytek.html

"Source: Cevat Yerli, Crytek | Coverage obtained from a press event held in San Francisco. Flights and accommodation were paid for by the publisher."

 

[Kb-Smoker]

Is any of the current debate base on anything but wishful speculation?

I have not read about any changes on any site but only in this thread. Yet i really don't see a source for any new information for the current debate.

 

[Boxercide]

Do you realize that you can't read? It is a quote of what Cevat Yerli says. Not what I say. Out of his mouth the number 32 GB came out. Go read the interview:

Original Source: http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/c...essors_will_impact_next-gen_specs_crytek.html

"Source: Cevat Yerli, Crytek | Coverage obtained from a press event held in San Francisco. Flights and accommodation were paid for by the publisher."

He says it in a joking manner. So you don't have anywhere he seriously claims he expects 32. You were just purposely misconstruing his words.

Got it.

Do you realize what is literal and what is hyperbole?

 

[warb]

Well he says 32 would be amazing but at a minimum 8. So I think he'd be happier with more than 8.

Indeed. I can't see what there is to argue on that, but life finds a way.

 

[Proelite]

hmmmm, maybe so, they still are good friends with Epic. which could also be why mark rein threw in getting an Xbox one as an alternative to a power PC in a recent statement.

----------------------------------------------------------------

speaking of which, Diving into the Pre May 21st rumor -

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58138440&postcount=1

Could the supposed pre-May 21st rumor be based on this PC;

thinking that this was the xbox one? It had 12 gbs of memory and was above 4 Tflops.

Seems legit.

 

[BeyondTed]

He says it in a joking manner. So you don't have anywhere he seriously claims he expects 32. You were just purposely misconstruing his words.

Got it.

Do you realize what is literal and what is hyperbole?

He already knew about the 8GB ram and what does he remark about the console? GPU? NO! He remarks 32GB when he knew 8GB already.

I really don't care if it was a joking reference or not.

You were just purposely misconstruing his words.

Bull$hit. He was asked and his response was increase the ram. I already said the amount was way out there and that I did not understand why he asked for it. I did not misconstrue anything.

Guys known for killing GPUs said "increase the ram 3x or 4x" and said nothing about increasing the GPU. Might mean something. Might not. But "purposely misconstruing his words"?

 

[BeyondTed]

Is any of the current debate base on anything but wishful speculation?

Yes, there is lots of wishful speculation. But it appears to be at least a little more than that.

I have not read about any changes on any site but only in this thread. Yet i really don't see a source for any new information for the current debate.

Just based upon a couple old published spec-up requests from publishers, a reveal after-math that just might underline those spec-up requests, an in house group and budget at MS (200 person team + Si Arch) that seems to know what they are doing, a couple paste bins (yes I don't think it is very credible when they can't type or understand half the specs), a couple behind the scenes "an insider PM'ed this" and MS not talking sufficiently specific and clear specs. And no, the "huge SoC", "ESRAM" and "5 BILLION transistors" is not necessarily 60% let alone 100% understood yet. Lots of interesting MS research publications - [I can dismiss each one pretty easily (I have written a few like those that worked and ended up in products and a few others which turned out to be hard to implement in practice but show promise for sometime in the future), but on the other hand out of X research publications I would expect at least Y% to end up in real products. And there are a number of pretty interesting ones.]

And it is on a couple other sites too. I got flamed the last time I cross referenced those so not sure I will bother again.

For example, the more I dig into TSMC 28 nm (and TSMC eDRAM or not) and GF versus TSMC and 28 nm bulk versus 20 nm bulk versus 28 nm FD-SOI the more the threads unravel. I have actual presentations (you can find them too if you look, try google) on all of those and they exist. I can not say which will be the answer but at this point I am unable to rule any out. I thought I had and then I found TSMC 28 nm eDRAM publication and then GF 28 nm FD-SOI presentation.

It would take an insider to rule out TSMC versus GF, 6T versus eDRAM, 28 nm bulk versus FD-SOI, etc.

If someone is not an insider then I don't believe their claim that one or the other is impossible.

If someone actually really knows something then say it. If you can't then don't hide somewhere throwing rocks.