Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

Status
Not open for further replies.
Can someone tell me if the ESRAM clock is necessary the same as the GPU clock?

Or could it be possible that the ESRAM is still 800 MHz while the GPU has been bumped up to 875 mhz? (Not that I've heard that is the case)


I have been saying for weeks my source said they toyed with 850 MHz and 900 MHz on the GPU and Esram.He has never said to me they was a go on with any upclocks.We haven't received anything saying an upclocks was a done deal.I will try to find out what I can about this.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Near silent I think they said. And you could be right if it wasn't for all the tv stuff.

From the Wired article

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one-development-photos/#slideid-138497

"If you have any voices in your head," Xbox general manager Leonardo del Castillo told us as we approached Microsoft's anechoic chamber, "you'll hear them in there." The room achieves outer-space-like absolute silence, and is one of the many places where the Xbox One evolved"


941409_10151625322526023_245547010_n.jpg
 
In the wired articles on the announcement date there was mention of the Cadence system for simulation: http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/building-xbox-one-an-inside-look/

Does anyone here know more about that Cadence system (the name, specs?) The wired article is a bit limited... "Space-ship like device..."

I ask since I am curious to know just how much custom design work and simulation MS might have done. I use Cadence design tools at work, but they are software running on (big) Unix boxes. No "space-ship like devices". Is the wired article referring to some big server rack or a rack loaded with huge Stratix or Virtex FPGAs? (Wild random guess.)

It is a personal curiosity, especially with the recent statement of touching every part of the system for efficiency. Just wondering if anyone has run across anything solid in terms of the MS design and simulation capabilities and where/how they were applied.
I am in a rush now so I had a quick check on the text --I shall read it later. :eek:

Whether it is efficiency or something else we just don't know about, Albert Penello said that the Xbox One will be more powerful than the PS4, and that the rumoured/leaked specs have changed. :oops:

He also said that they won't give the final specs until November. It's all beginning to fall into place given the fact that it does tally with the very little info they gave about the specs in the Xbox reveal.

Given the rumored specs for both systems, can anyone conceive of a circumstance or decision one platform holder could make, where despite the theoretical performance benchmarks of the components, the box that appears “weaker” could actually be more powerful?

I believe the debate on this could give some light to why we don’t want to engage in a specification debate until both boxes are final and shipping.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=66980146&postcount=542

EDIT: He said that the specs would change over time, weeks before the E3, but the interview went unnoticed. Til now....

http://www.oxm.co.uk/57365/microsof...ight-not-tell-the-whole-story-on-performance/
 
75mhz is around 10%,so no,it's not a "small" overclock.And if MS wants to maintain November as the launch date and release the console worldwide before christmas,I hope mass production has begun....


In this context, 875 MHz is still massively underclocked for the part. Commercial versions of the most similar GPU come at 1175 MHz stock. See http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814103232

Even the most basic versions of the 7790 come at 1 Ghz. So there should be plenty of head room.
 
Whether it is efficiency or something else we just don't know about, Albert Penello said that the Xbox One will be more powerful than the PS4, and that the rumoured/leaked specs have changed.
No, he said he's not getting dragged into a pissing match over specs.

EDIT: He said that the specs would change over time, weeks before the E3, but the interview went unnoticed. Til now....

http://www.oxm.co.uk/57365/microsof...ight-not-tell-the-whole-story-on-performance/
If I give voice to my inner cynic, this could be a cunning PR campaign. We know MS needs to actually manufacture these things ahead of the release date, so the time for changing specs is measured in weeks, and you can't change much in a matter of weeks. However, suggesting you can, and throwing the question to the public, you get the public coming up with explanations as to how the "weaker spec" console can be the better performer, effectively creating FUD. MS would then just have to say, "no comment," and the fanboys will run wild with unsubstantiated speculation, evangelising how much better XB1 is without actually knowing that to be the case because the theories are based on guesswork and wishful thinking.

eg. Penello : Can anyone come up with an explanation about how our hardware could perform faster than PS4 given the specs we know?
Gaf 1 : What if the ESRAM provides far greater ALU utilisation.
Penello : Indeed, what if? ;)
Gaf 2 : What if the custom blocks, the depth and colour and memory move blocks, are much improved?
Penello : Yes, what if? :D

Rest of the world for the next few years : "Even if PS4 has more CUs, XB1 has better efficiency and improved custom blocks. It's a far more efficient design. Penello pretty much said as much."

Of course, in that example Penello says nothing. the smiley faces are used to imply the affirmative, but they have zero real substance and none of those theories are substantiated. But it equips the MS fanbase with some arguments that the fanboys will press relentlessly for the rest of the generation. We see it time and time again, idiot fanboys believing and evangelising and talking shit, and from a business POV it's probably better to encourage that than lay the facts out straight and eliminate the confusion. FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. If you're not in the strongest position in a particular field of your market, uncertainty and doubt help obfuscate your opponent's advantage.

I'm not saying that is what's happening in, but I hope people bare that in mind regards everything they ever read from a Sony or MS mouthpiece. The only meaningful information is that which comes from engineers are hard numbers and facts. Everything else cannot be corroborated or evaluated, and shouldn't be given any weight - for any platform and for any rumour. We know PS4 has 18 CUs because that was a cold, hard fact from Sony. We know XB1's GPU can execute 768 ops per clock, pointing to the leaked 12 CU spec, as that was a cold, hard fact. All the non-facts are wielded for marketing purposes, and not to inform the buying public.
 
The thing is though, if MS is waging some kind of PR campaign, it's incredibly quiet.

You dont make a post on GAF to make a PR campaign. Nobody knows about that.

Now the cloud stuff, that's an example of a louder campaign. Something they've spoken loudly.

Panello's post is something entirely different imo, likely real insight.
 
... However, suggesting you can, and throwing the question to the public, you get the public coming up with explanations as to how the "weaker spec" console can be the better performer, effectively creating FUD. MS would then just have to say, "no comment," and the fanboys will run wild with unsubstantiated speculation, evangelising how much better XB1 is without actually knowing that to be the case because the theories are based on guesswork and wishful thinking.

eg. Penello : Can anyone come up with an explanation about how our hardware could perform faster than PS4 given the specs we know?
Gaf 1 : What if the ESRAM provides far greater ALU utilisation.
Penello : Indeed, what if? ;)
Gaf 2 : What if the custom blocks, the depth and colour and memory move blocks, are much improved?
Penello : Yes, what if? :D

Rest of the world for the next few years : "Even if PS4 has more CUs, XB1 has better efficiency and improved custom blocks. It's a far more efficient design. Penello pretty much said as much."

Penello fanboy management techniques look to be quite good. He was even able to inject humbleness into his neogaf posts ( assuming it is him but I think it is ). Getting some grudging respect from this gen's Sony Defence Force can only add to his strength in FUD (Fanboy Uncertainty and Doubt) :LOL:

FB 1 : What Penello says has to right even SDF 1 and SDF 2 have good things to say about the guy !!

FB 2 : I heard that just like the 88% increase in bandwidth on ESRAM on simultaneous read/writes there will be a similar increase in CU throughput !! 768*1.88 = 1444 ops/clock ... PS4 doesn't stand a chance !!!

FB 1 : So CUs will read/write/compute/slice/dice all at the same time ... AWESOME :cool:
 
The thing is though, if MS is waging some kind of PR campaign, it's incredibly quiet.

You dont make a post on GAF to make a PR campaign. Nobody knows about that.

Now the cloud stuff, that's an example of a louder campaign. Something they've spoken loudly.

Panello's post is something entirely different imo, likely real insight.
It doesn't have to be a full blown campaign. Panello's posts don't really say anything, and he's admitted that he's in no position to understand Sony's architecture in depth. So have can he have insider knowledge that what they are doing to XB1 (which we know has production constraints regards any changes) is going to result in a platform more powerful in real terms than PS4?

It's basically a meaningless comment. The only thing can be gained from it is 'hope' for those who have such emotional attachments that the XB1 will outperform the PS4. There's no explanation as to how or why this could happen, so no real reason to believe expect for said emotional attachment. There's also the same argument that there's nothing MS can do in the next few weeks that Sony can't, so how does Panello's remark (what can be done?) prove anything? Let's say the answer to his question is "a 200 MHz increase in clock." Why is that applicable to XB1 but not PS4? There aren't enough details to draw any conclusions. Regardless of what his intentions were, Panello's post is only adding speculative fuel to the fire during a time when the xB1 is publically being regarded as inferior - the incentive to add just a little countermeasure to the public chatter is definitely there, and GAF is the best place for that sort of information control. Every gaming website will pick up on it and regurgitate it - it doesn't need a $200 million ad campaign "XB1 >> PS4".

This is the tech forum, investigating the hardware. PR is PR, not hard evidence, so people should be wary about linking to it here. At best, it can be a platform for speculation - what hardware changes can be made in the next few weeks if Ponello's statement is valid? - but it shouldn't ever be taken as proof of something - the XB1 specs have improved and it's going to be more powerful than PS4, which is what Cyan did.
 
Penello fanboy management techniques look to be quite good. He was even able to inject humbleness into his neogaf posts ( assuming it is him but I think it is ). Getting some grudging respect from this gen's Sony Defence Force can only add to his strength in FUD (Fanboy Uncertainty and Doubt) :LOL:...
That is indeed the sort of fanboy crap that pollutes sane hardware discussion, but this isn't a 'rant against PR' thread. My post was a heads up for Cyan and the like, who are quick to attribute meaningful value to information that, on even passing inspection, has no real value, and is operating in a market where (mis)information is an important part of competition (for the core gamer in this case). Just because a corporate official says something officially, doesn't mean it has any real meaning, and that's why I say no-one should regard anything but cold hard facts, or engineer talk, as worth anything, especially in threads like this one.
 
I'm not saying that is what's happening in, but I hope people bare that in mind regards everything they ever read from a Sony or MS mouthpiece.

You know Shifty - being the resident grammar nazi and all - the phrase is actually 'bear in mind' :p

I've noticed a few people use 'bare' instead in the past week or so.
Didn't it ever seem that 'bare in mind' doesn't make much sense?
 
Fair point, I've never paid that much attention. Considering all the typos and grammatical errors I tend to fix in everything I type, I'm not surprised one habitually gets through. The costumers could care less tho.
 
We know XB1's GPU can execute 768 ops per clock, pointing to the leaked 12 CU spec, as that was a cold, hard fact. All the non-facts are wielded for marketing purposes, and not to inform the buying public.


Why did they even bother with the 768 ops/clk spec at all ?

8 gb of memory, 5 billion transistors, ICP ( Infinite Cloud Power not Insane Clown Posse ) but on one spec that can be seemingly easily compared they actually put a number on it.
 
I haven't really seen a console receive a up clock this large, nor this close to the release date.

Its possible, but this isn't really a minor thing, it would effect the thermals, the yields, it could (depending) effect the power situation.

Simple , the previous hardware they got back required higher voltage to run at 1.6/800 the new parts require less voltage to run at 1.6/800 . Since they designed the box with the previous hardware in mind they had cooling capcity to spare and thus upclocks aren't out of the question.

What they haven't settled on is how high due to yields. They are trying to find the sweet spot that's why the final upclock isn't settled on or if there will be one.
 
No, he said he's not getting dragged into a pissing match over specs.

If I give voice to my inner cynic, this could be a cunning PR campaign. We know MS needs to actually manufacture these things ahead of the release date, so the time for changing specs is measured in weeks, and you can't change much in a matter of weeks. However, suggesting you can, and throwing the question to the public, you get the public coming up with explanations as to how the "weaker spec" console can be the better performer, effectively creating FUD. MS would then just have to say, "no comment," and the fanboys will run wild with unsubstantiated speculation, evangelising how much better XB1 is without actually knowing that to be the case because the theories are based on guesswork and wishful thinking.

eg. Penello : Can anyone come up with an explanation about how our hardware could perform faster than PS4 given the specs we know?
Gaf 1 : What if the ESRAM provides far greater ALU utilisation.
Penello : Indeed, what if? ;)
Gaf 2 : What if the custom blocks, the depth and colour and memory move blocks, are much improved?
Penello : Yes, what if? :D

Rest of the world for the next few years : "Even if PS4 has more CUs, XB1 has better efficiency and improved custom blocks. It's a far more efficient design. Penello pretty much said as much."

Of course, in that example Penello says nothing. the smiley faces are used to imply the affirmative, but they have zero real substance and none of those theories are substantiated. But it equips the MS fanbase with some arguments that the fanboys will press relentlessly for the rest of the generation. We see it time and time again, idiot fanboys believing and evangelising and talking shit, and from a business POV it's probably better to encourage that than lay the facts out straight and eliminate the confusion. FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. If you're not in the strongest position in a particular field of your market, uncertainty and doubt help obfuscate your opponent's advantage.

I'm not saying that is what's happening in, but I hope people bare that in mind regards everything they ever read from a Sony or MS mouthpiece. The only meaningful information is that which comes from engineers are hard numbers and facts. Everything else cannot be corroborated or evaluated, and shouldn't be given any weight - for any platform and for any rumour. We know PS4 has 18 CUs because that was a cold, hard fact from Sony. We know XB1's GPU can execute 768 ops per clock, pointing to the leaked 12 CU spec, as that was a cold, hard fact. All the non-facts are wielded for marketing purposes, and not to inform the buying public.

But which 768 ops per clock GPU? (Is it 7790 based or different?) Is there some evidence in the Wired article [found it in the architectural panel thread on B3D] when they mention the 50kW water cooled Cadence Design Systems equipment used to simulate/emulate? Isn't that really strong evidence that MS themselves (not just AMD) were doing seriously heavy silicon design work? I don't think you use a 50kW water cooled machine to simulate/emulate an audio DSP. I know about 1-2 kW machines with 12-48 cores but 50kW and water cooled? That is for serious design work and from Cadence must cost millions.

Anyone here know if that is the sort of machine used by AMD or IBM to simulate/emulate CPU or GPU/APU designs? Any AMD or ex-AMD people hanging around?

It might matter quite a bit if the CPU and GPU turn out NOT to be standard AMD designs or at least quite a bit materially departed from stock designs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That is indeed the sort of fanboy crap that pollutes sane hardware discussion, but this isn't a 'rant against PR' thread. My post was a heads up for Cyan and the like, who are quick to attribute meaningful value to information that, on even passing inspection, has no real value, and is operating in a market where (mis)information is an important part of competition (for the core gamer in this case). Just because a corporate official says something officially, doesn't mean it has any real meaning, and that's why I say no-one should regard anything but cold hard facts, or engineer talk, as worth anything, especially in threads like this one.

Sony missed out on some of the fun by being a little too forthcoming ( relative to MS ) with specs and choosing a pretty straightforward design hardware wise. Fewer places for the special sauce to hide ;)

Of course if MS does indeed have an optimized pipeline it will be fun to pick it apart as there will be hardware solutions to certain things rather than software ones.
 
Silly Season is over people, unless something unnatural happens at TGC/GDCEurope/Gamescom. Stick to sensible hardware discussion, please.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top