Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

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I know what I would choose... I think many will be surprised what general consumers choose. A much better Kinect and media coming out of your ears, especially the likes of the NFL, will appeal to a lot of non-core gamers who are none-the-less technophiles.

Amen... but few remarks:

1) The TV integration is almost irrelevant in Europe.
2) Sports games. Maybe FIFA xx, same as above. Here in Europe we don't give a thing about these US sports games and sports stats.
3) I'm still not convinced speech or waving in front of your TV is way to control things.
4) I don't buy into this story of an IR blaster and HDMI in. HDMI CEC and IR control is asking for problems. Microsoft used as excuse "people have problems switching between TV and playing games, changing inputs etc.". For this the world invented an AV receiver or multiple HDMI ins on a TV. Single SCART or having to daisy chain stuff is over.
5) I still have to see a good game (no, not the childs-play Nintendo Wii crap) effectively using Kinnect or the Move. KZ on PS3 allowed you to use the Move in some plastic toy gun, but for aiming it's terrible. Who is going to stand in front of his coffee table and jump up/down to play a game ? No way !!
6) I'm not convinced porting the current huge (300-400 mm ???) SoC to a smaller process node like 20 nm or 14 nm is easy. It's not just a process shrink (resynthesize your logic and be done with it). Could be a completely new (costly) SoC development.
 
Anyways it is a cascade effect. MS has fewer CUs because they have ESRAM taking up die space. They have ESRAM to compensate for slow DDR3. And they have slow DDR3 because [strike]they have a TON more memory[/strike]. And they have a [strike]ton more memory[/strike] so they can compete in gaming while also serving up all their media services.

It all blows up with Sony obtaining 8GB of GDDR5.

Reverse the flow: If MS had 8GB of GDDR5 they would not have needed ESRAM. And if they didn't need ESRAM they would have the same number of CUs.

And the crappy part for MS is I am betting their BOM out of the gate will be on par with Sony's.

A good post there Acert!

For the quoted part, I think there are few alternate scenarios. I believe their design with fewer CUs was mainly to keep the power consumption lower and thus more CUs was never seriously at the table even if they had used GDDR5. Alternatively if it turns out that the Xbone APU consumes as much power as the one in PS4 (I think the one in PS4 does consume more) then the design decisions was purely to keep the BOM down by the fact that DDR3 + ESRAM should be cheaper than GDDR5 during the lifetime and perhaps partly driven by the fact that the DDR3 memory uses less Watts than GDDR5.
 
Unfortunately the wheels on the bus have fallen off for the core market: The platform has 33% less compute, a similar reduction in texture performance, 50% less fill-rate, a more complex dev environment due to the ESRAM, slower main memory, less main memory, probably less CPU resources (Sony has some helper logic for background tasks and MS has to power all that media crap somehow), all in an expensive box sporting multiple OS's running side by side that is clearly not aimed at gaming as the core/prime use but as an equal, important, but comorbid function with the media suite all tied into Kinect.

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While the spec differences are glaringly obvious. I am not sure that it matters in the real world. XBone GPU is way more than sufficient for 1080P high IQ gaming. I use a 5750 for 1200P gaming and it works fine on everything that I play on medium. Now if the PS4 was a 3+ TF monster then there might be a more noticeable difference. However even then, I am not that sure that there would be that much of a difference due to diminishing returns in 1080P gaming.
 
According to Kotaku, only 90% of the GPU power is usable for games. They also mention various system states:

1) Running: The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory. The game is rendering full-screen and the user can interact with it.
2) Constrained: The game is loaded in memory and is still running, but it has limited access to the system resources. The game is not rendering full screen in this state; it either is rendering to a reduced area of the screen or is not visible at all. The user cannot interact with the game in this state. System resource limits in this state are four CPUs, 5 GB of memory, and 45 percent of GPU power if the game is rendering to a reduced area of the screen, or 10 percent of GPU power if the game is not visible.
3) Suspended: The game is loaded in memory but is not running, meaning that the system has stopped scheduling all threads in the game process. The game has no access to CPUs or to the GPU processing power, but it still has the same 5 GB of memory reserved.
4) NotRunning: The game is not loaded in memory and is not running, and the system has no game-history information about the previous execution of the game. A game would be in NotRunning state in any of these three scenarios:
-The game has not been run since the console started.
-The game crashed during the last execution.
-The game did not properly handle the suspend process during the last execution and was forced to exit by the system.

5) Terminated: The game is not loaded in memory and is not running, which is identical to the NotRunning state in terms of system resource usage. Terminated state, however, indicates that during the last execution of the game, the game process was successfully suspended and then terminated by the system. This means that the game had a chance to save its state as it was suspended; the next time the game is activated, it can load this previous state data and continue the user experience from the same position. A game, for example, can start from the same level and position in the player’s last session without showing any front-end menu.
 
- DDR3 offers high densities and is very cheap (but slow). At the time it looked like MS could get away with 8GB of DDR3 versus 2GB of GDDR5. The trade off was speed for space. As the APU was going to be a big chip pad limits weren't a huge issue over the lifetime of the design. The bet was they could reserve 3GB of memory to the OS and be at 5GB vs. 2GB. Or even if Sony went with 4GB at least 500MB was going to the OS so it would still be a 1.5GB advantage.

Great post but i don't think its entirely fair to say MS completely backed in to this solution. On-die cache is not a completely esoteric design, how is it even fundamentally different than what Haswell is doing now?

There's the possibility that MS came up with ESRAM/DDR3 first, and then backed into how much they could pack in the machine based on BOM and power requirements...
 
Arstechnica has an interesting article about how the Xbox One will utlized cloud computing:

Microsoft says the Xbox One will use to help support "latency-insensitive computation" in its games
"Things that I would call latency-sensitive would be reactions to animations in a shooter, reactions to hits and shots in a racing game, reactions to collisions," Booty told Ars. "Those things you need to have happen immediately and on frame and in sync with your controller. There are some things in a video game world, though, that don't necessarily need to be updated every frame or don't change that much in reaction to what's going on."

It made me think about MS's decision in the architectural design of the Xbox One. The current thought is that MS choose DDR3 solely because it's cheap, and added ESRAM to aid bandwidth. I think the real reason for this is all about latency - MS designed the chip to be super efficient, with extremely low latency.

DDR3 has a lower latency then GDDR5, at the cost of bandwidth. Embedded RAM was added to help with that. MS chose ESRAM, that will cost them an estimated 1.6billion transistors; I was wondering why they'd choose this over EDRAM which would have a higher bandwidth and is much more dense (though more heat too).

I think the DDR3 was paired with ESRAM (over EDRAM) due to it's super low latency. There's also the rumored changes to the way the L1 cache works (64 way vs 16 way for normal GCN). All these design decisions should make the console super efficient. When combined with cloud computing, the xbox one will be able to focus all its resources on latency sentsitive tasks, while sending latency insensitive tasks to the cloud. Using GDDR5 with it's higher latency would have made for a more ineficient design in that respect.

Of course, this is all (hopefull) speculation, and at this point have no idea if this idea of combined computer power of the cloud + console will be as fleshed out as MS is saying.
 
According to Kotaku, only 90% of the GPU power is usable for games.

The 90% figure is rather vague/worrying. We should be expecting a significant reservation (probably kinect analysis, and a tiny bit for UI and maybe some HDMI-in/video stuff), but that should be a very specific reservation, rather than "10% of everything". (unless it's a timeslice thing?)

Something that has been bothering me is the display planes idea - are the planes merged during HDMI output, or before? If before, then it may have a bit of a severe downside.

Great post but i don't think its entirely fair to say MS completely backed in to this solution.

Probably not, but I'd suggest reading the previous page - especially the post by bkilian :).
 
Why MS didn't use two 4GB DDR3 and total 136 GB/s bandwidth + Move engines? 7770 needs 72 GB/s and 7790 is 102 GB/s. What's the difference between this and 32 eSRAM + 8 GB DDR3 (and of course 170 GB/s bandwidth), both of them are separate pools.
 
I think it's complete marketing hype. Looks like on the BD box: This game has been Cloud accelerated.

Seriously... so if I'm downloading a few NZBs at home, it could happen that e.g. the frame rate stutters or I suffer in IQ ?

Hard to sell to me....
Probably you'd get a cheaper local place holder.
 
I think it's complete marketing hype. Looks like on the BD box: This game has been Cloud accelerated.

Seriously... so if I'm downloading a few NZBs at home, it could happen that e.g. the frame rate stutters or I suffer in IQ ?

Hard to sell to me....

Indeed, it'd appear that background downloading is a non-starter.

The cloud accelerated is how you'd want to market a game, but then any game that hooks up to the internet can claim that so.....
 
I think it's complete marketing hype. Looks like on the BD box: This game has been Cloud accelerated.

Seriously... so if I'm downloading a few NZBs at home, it could happen that e.g. the frame rate stutters or I suffer in IQ ?

Hard to sell to me....

I think that's where the low latency design would come in. Tasks that are latency sensitve would be processed on the console, while tasks that aren't would be sent to the cloud. Framerate would not be affected, though maybe IQ would?
 
Something that has been bothering me is the display planes idea - are the planes merged during HDMI output, or before?
If the display planes were designed by anyone worth their salt they do their work during display scanout, and only fetch data for the currently topmost layer.

If before, then it may have a bit of a severe downside.
If before, they don't really do anything different than what we use today, IE a traditional scaling blit.

Why MS didn't use two 4GB DDR3 and total 136 GB/s bandwidth + Move engines?
"Move engine" is just a fancy name for a traditional DMA channel with some decompression stuff tacked on. They don't add to system bandwidth, rather, they consume it when active.

Anyway, what do you mean "two 4GB DDR3"? The xbone already uses 16 DDR3 chips on a 256-bit bus. To reach 136GB/s with 2166MHz DDR3 (fastest available) you would need 512-bit bus, which would be cost prohibitive and very radical design for a mass-produced console.
 
If the Xbox One is using a slimmed version of RemoteFX, would it be possible for MSFT to have an app for a Win8 pc that could aide in the cloud computing? To think the Xbox One could check the local network for an idle pc running the app in the background that it could sent "middle" latency sensitive computations to instead of Azure Cloud? In turn, you have a local "cloud" that saves latency and improves performance?
 
If the Xbox One is using a slimmed version of RemoteFX, would it be possible for MSFT to have an app for a Win8 pc that could aide in the cloud computing? To think the Xbox One could check the local network for an idle pc running the app in the background that it could sent "middle" latency sensitive computations to instead of Azure Cloud? In turn, you have a local "cloud" that saves latency and improves performance?

No RFX is a protocol for remote computing not distributed computing (think OnLive). The cloud code will always live in MS cloud as it's the only way for a developer to have certainty over the amount of resources that are available to the remote computer. If it was possible to have a local offload server then the timing and synch stuff gets real messy, real fast as no two local offload boxes would be the same.
 
both 1866 and 2133 are real speeds purchased from foundries . MR FoX has posted the info before.

I realize that. I also realize the DDR3 spec allows for it. I'm just stating its not the run of the mill 1333/1600 modules running around in the millions everywhere. 1866 and up is usually only made by certain vendors like ocz/mushkin/corsair/kingston etc.
 
Now that the unveil has come and gone I think I should summarize this for those having a hard time. bkillian can tell me how wrong I am :D

MS back in 2009-2010 when was setting their targets. Fabs were having issues and certain technologies continued to slide (DDR4, FINFET, silicon interposers, stacked memory, etc). The current generation was running long in tooth and Sony and Nintendo surely going to release before the other technologies materialized. So like Sony they had to go with what was on the board.

They clearly set out with a number of goals. First was the next Xbox was to be what the vision was for the first Xbox platform: a central entertainment hub for all things digital media. This clearly means the focus of the platform is squarely Xbox LIVE moreso than the hardware delivery. The next issue was costs (BOM as well as TDP), specifically cost reduction--if they want it to be a media hub and to displace/compliment cable boxes, be integrated into other devices, and be so cost effective to eventually squeeze out the Rokus of the world cost reduction was vital.

So they walk into a room with AMD and get (a) the same general technology options and (b) the same BOM / TDP metrics. They both chose APUs for many reasons so their choices became really obvious.

MS chose the following:

- MS decided to fully embrace the media box it needed 2 distinct OSes, hence the hypervisor and a Win8 variant and GameOS. This would require a lot of memory.

- DDR3 offers high densities and is very cheap (but slow). At the time it looked like MS could get away with 8GB of DDR3 versus 2GB of GDDR5. The trade off was speed for space. As the APU was going to be a big chip pad limits weren't a huge issue over the lifetime of the design. The bet was they could reserve 3GB of memory to the OS and be at 5GB vs. 2GB. Or even if Sony went with 4GB at least 500MB was going to the OS so it would still be a 1.5GB advantage.

- Embedded memory to resolve bandwidth shortages. A separate eDRAM module requires another bus and likely Xenos issues so that was off the board as it distracted from the SOC goal. eDRAM on die would be costly due to process issues. ESRAM was the next best option (as other variants were off the table for licensing?) The problem is ESRAM takes up a lot of real estate. The good news is that it scales well with process shrinks. The ESRAM doesn't appear over engineered (e.g. just enough bandwidth for what the system can use). Surprisingly, probably due to how complex these chips are these days and AMD's limited resources, ESRAM is not shared between the GPU and CPU.

- Storage. For the media and gaming goals they need a delivery system and local storage. Online is still too slow and lacks penetration so BDR was the easy choice--and have consumers pay the licensing fee for movie playback. SSDs are too expensive/small so a single platter HDD would do.


This is where things went wrong: GDDR5 densities grew allowing Sony to match memory footprint.


So back to MS's platform. They obviously have a HUGE multitasking/multimedia edge--the entire platform is built around apps.

On the reverse side the technology budgets clearly show gaming was not the first priority with "everything else having to fit in after that."

Anyways it is a cascade effect. MS has fewer CUs because they have ESRAM taking up die space. They have ESRAM to compensate for slow DDR3. And they have slow DDR3 because [strike]they have a TON more memory[/strike]. And they have a [strike]ton more memory[/strike] so they can compete in gaming while also serving up all their media services.

It all blows up with Sony obtaining 8GB of GDDR5.

Reverse the flow: If MS had 8GB of GDDR5 they would not have needed ESRAM. And if they didn't need ESRAM they would have the same number of CUs.

And the crappy part for MS is I am betting their BOM out of the gate will be on par with Sony's.

Now not all is doom and gloom.

First is that the GDDR5 is going to be costly for a long time. On the flip side the ESRAM is going to shrink QUICKLY so MS's APU will become more affordable, quicker (in theory--if process reductions continue at a snails pace I think this was a horrible gamble). So MS has much cheaper and common DDR3 and will get to leverage more cost savings on node reductions.

MS also has Kinect (this is where their launch BOM may be higher) -- which the tech finally looks fantastic but they need games to prove its worth. The Kinect's killer app is probably the dashboard and Skype (which MS paid BILLIONS for).

Ahhh yeah, this thing was getting expensive so the embedded 360 SOC was tossed out. Hey, this saves money and MAKES money when you resell the XBLA games!

(Cha-ching MBA's with dollar signs in their eyes!)

Anyways, for all these reasons I highly doubt MS ever entertained changing the HW once they knew what Sony had -- EVERYTHING was tied into this strategy. I am sure they expected to be bested by 50% in CU performance.

Where MS was gonna hit back is they are close enough for rough parity--resolution reduction (something studies show most consumers do NOT notice) will level the playing field. The extra memory in theory could have assuaged some of the load times, and their killer app was (a) XBL / Media centric and (b) Kinect.

Unfortunately the wheels on the bus have fallen off for the core market: The platform has 33% less compute, a similar reduction in texture performance, 50% less fill-rate, a more complex dev environment due to the ESRAM, slower main memory, less main memory, probably less CPU resources (Sony has some helper logic for background tasks and MS has to power all that media crap somehow), all in an expensive box sporting multiple OS's running side by side that is clearly not aimed at gaming as the core/prime use but as an equal, important, but comorbid function with the media suite all tied into Kinect.

This will make many consumer super duper happy.

This will make many gamers-only very unhappy.


If Sony was at 2GB, or even 4GB, of GDDR5 I think the discussion would like a lot different. It obviously all comes down to games. But as a gaming platform it is pretty clear Xbox One is at a disadvantage across the performance board. Multiplatform games are going to suffer. I think Xbox One will performance wise be similar to the GCN next to the PS2 and Xbox1 -- it ran the same stuff and play the same, just not always as pretty or as smoothly.

So stop dreaming of hardware changes or upclocks. All these scenarios were thought out well long ago. MS knew Sony would have more gaming beef. That was by design.

MS is content with "very similar" gaming experience because the 33% less compute means better cost reduction down the road and allowed MS to make KINECT and MEDIA (XBL) equal full-time partners in regards to access and utility.

As a consumer you have to choose: Are all the extra Media things MS doing worth a couple less pretty pixels here and there or not?

Obviously price, exclusives, multiplatform performance, how used games and online pricing plays out, (and stuff like 3rd party indie publishing) will all be important but in regards to hardware and what it was designed to do do you want something that can overlay your Cable Box and interact with it and has a killer 3D interface in Kinect always on and Skype and Apps always on ready to be used and "Almost as good as Sony" gaming performance or do you want Tier1 Console gaming (but not PC!) and the apps be more secondary (something like the 360 on steroids)?

I know what I would choose... I think many will be surprised what general consumers choose. A much better Kinect and media coming out of your ears, especially the likes of the NFL, will appeal to a lot of non-core gamers who are none-the-less technophiles.
You deserve a round applause for this very valuable contribution, it is quite informative and sounds about right to me, it helps to get the big picture.

Besides that, it summarizes what some people think and fills in some gaps in the knowledge about the strategy of Sony and Microsoft.
 
Quote from Albert Penello (Xbone Planning Boss) via GIBiz when asked when the project kicked off:

I'd say it was probably the end of 2010, early 2011, when we really started getting serious.

Eurogamer analysis of where it went right (and wrong) for MS.
 
I'm way behind on posts. what's the current thinking on the claimed 200 GB/s total RAM bandwidth? Number massaging, or signs of increased clocks? DDR3 is maxxed out I think, which means another 30% on the ESRAM bandwidth. Maybe 20% with rounding up for PR purposes.
 
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