XBox One Backwards Compatibility and Xbox One X Enhancements for X360 and OG (XO XOX BC)

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Lalaland, Jun 15, 2015.

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  1. tuna

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    Compilation is the same as translation. The usual form of compilation is source code to machine code, but machine code to machine code is compilation as well.
     
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  2. BRiT

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    I know that, but what others have been saying and hinting at is "No wonder it takes so long to get new games, because they have to recompile from source". I am making the technical distinction that "re-compile" in that regards is absolutely not happening. The MS Xbox BC has absolutely no access to the games source code and does not need it.

    I'm trying to have a technical discussion that requires technical distinctions to be made but with everyone redefining specific terms to be more general then they really ought to be makes having a technical discussion impossible. Hence my frustration. They might as well be using the term "smurf" to refer to every item that is being done.

    First they resmurf this, then they smurf that, then the resmurf it.
     
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  3. Cyan

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    Certainly, I am not as technical as you, that's more than obvious, but you simply forgot the simple things. I am likely to not being reasonable if I have a technical discussion with you and many B3D fellows who know their stuff. Even so, in this discussion you remind me of one of the Network subject teachers, which is a machine and superb intelligent, and built the entire network in the school, and he was recently challenged by a classmate about something he said about WiFi.

    He said he'd study the case. Next day he returned and told my classmate that he was right, so kudos to him.

    But yes, it's cool to argue with me..
     
    #223 Cyan, Nov 14, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  4. Shifty Geezer

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    That's the first time (I recall) I've seen it called PPC to x64 recompilation. It's always been referred to as 360 to XB1 repackaging. That contradicts what MS have been reiterating. From your Spencer quote, they run the XB360 as a hardware emulation. Therefore there's no need to convert the CPU code if the CPU is emulated. If they rebuild the game code from PPC to for XB1's x86 architecture, Spencer's comment would be false. I conclude Mike Rayner was incorrect.

    The reason why games have to be redownloaded is because they are presented to the XB1 as an XB1 title. They need to be packaged in a format that fits the XB1 OS so that they are accessible like any other game. The alternative would be to boot into 360 mode and run the emulator as a whole system. This would allow (theoretically) full BC, put in any disc and play. But it would also need an XB360 partition on the HDD to install stuff too, and you'd lose access to the whole XB1 side of things, so no notifications or snapped apps, etc. MS want the BC to run within the XB1 experience, so need to restructure the game packages to fit the XB1 OS.
     
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  5. Globalisateur

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  6. BRiT

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    Le Sigh. I wish Leadbetter had simply called it what it is "machine code translation" or at the very least call it "resmurfing".
     
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  7. Shifty Geezer

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    People are getting tripped up on terms. The meat of the issue is whether the PPC code is going into the emulator and being run in real time, or whether the PPC code is being turned into x86 and x86 code is going into the emulator. Is the XB1 BC package for each title in native PPC machine language or x86, requiring preprocessing on MS's end?

    That makes the difference between BC conceptually being able to run disc titles like a virtual 360 (even if not implemented as such), or whether the BC absolutely requires a preprocessing step which is one of the things limiting what titles are being made available.
     
  8. Cyan

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    Okay, this is what Phil Spencer said. Yet people don't know how it actually works, right? Reading your post I get I was wrong when I said it's not a hardware compiler, but the question stands, what's being compiled and whatnot. Maybe nothing is compiled and you and BriT are right, but I highly doubt that's the case.

    http://www.thetechgame.com/News/sid...w-xbox-one-backwards-compatibility-works.html

    Spencer continued to explain that, since the Xbox One thinks it's playing a normal game, features such as streaming and screenshots are supported.

    Delving deeper, Spencer explained exactly how the emulator packages the Xbox 360 games, and how it compares to Xbox 360's emulation of original Xbox games.
    Asked about whether Microsoft would require permission from game publishers to adjust game code, Spencer clarified it would not be interfering with code.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    This is what Rayner said (from Globalisateur link):

     
  9. Cyan

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    Is this what you are talking about..binary translation? I guess @tuna was correct then.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_translation

     
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  10. Persistantthug

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    I'm trying to understand how they did it.

    Before I was under the impression that it couldn't be done because the Power PC Cpu was too different from an X86 cpu, and since alot of games used the Cpu, more or less, for some graphics processing, that it would be quite a while until XBOX 360 games could be emulated.

    I know that it will be many times harder for any CELL PROCESSOR emulation, but it should still be difficult to emulate a Power PC cpu......at least that was my understanding.


    So, How'd they do it?

    Was it Sorcery?

    Voodoo?
     
  11. tuna

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    If we leave semantics aside, are there any reports of the performance of the final BC solution (aside from DF's Fallout 3 report)?
     
  12. Persistantthug

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    Now that I've typed this, Perhaps I have my own hypothesis......

    Is Microsoft actually reprogramming and/or porting each and every XBOX 360 game with their API (Direct X 12?) ?

    Is that what is going on, Beyond3d guys?
     
  13. BRiT

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    Microsoft are not changing any of the Game code at all. They are not porting the game code. To do so would require access to the game source code. They are not using the source code. They are using the binary artifacts of the game.

    What they have done is port the entire X360 OS and libraries that the games are using, onto the Xbox One as a "game".

    The binary artifacts of the game is processed through a static translation and then repackaged along with the "Xbox 360 BC Layer" to be treated as an Xbox One Game.
     
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  14. Persistantthug

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    Ok......
    I know what binary is.....
    I know what an "artifact" is.


    But I'm gonna need a little help......
    What is a Binary Artifact?

    lol

    Seriously though.....
    what is it? :oops:
     
  15. BRiT

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    Binary Artifact is the digital artifacts of a game. Perhaps I should have used "digital artifacts", but it's akin to "binary executable" to distinguish it from "source code".

    In the typical software development world, you take the source code and compile them to generate artifacts, typically a binary executable or binary file. I wont get into systems that use compilers to generate intermediate code that is interpreted at runtimes like JVM or MS CLR nor will I get into systems that use preprocessors like M4 or T4 to expand macros.
     
  16. BadTB25

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    Looking forward to playing Halo Reach when it is available for BC. I might even play through ODST again, but it is my least favorite Halo.
     
  17. SedentaryJourney

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    So the machine code or binary object code of the game is translated ahead of time, and it runs on top of a virtual Xbox360?
     
  18. Cyan

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  19. xexuxjy

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    I'd still like to see some of the older jrpgs like Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon, which as they're MS published I thought would be easier to get going (multi-disc issues for LO aside). Also be good to see more indy games (Deathspank!) coming over, though the last update re-enabled Age of Booty and Space Giraffe for me so that was good.
     
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  20. milk

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    Of course we all know the original 360 binaries are being resmurfed into native x86 code, but its important to understand what smurfing type they are using. Papa smurf, for one, wears red clothing, or Smurfette, she is female. That's the final piece of the puzzle we are trying to uncover here.
     
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