XBox One 20nm APU revision possibilities *spawn*

[eastmen]

I don't think an Xbox Slim will happen because of 20nm but a new chip is the catalyst for a new board so why shrink the whole thing.

The Xbox One was originally designed to be an always on universal media box hub that ran silent for 20 years. Microsoft actually made a big deal about saying that then design language was so it would look at home in a media centre.

That vision died almost a year ago. Now it's back to being an Xbox: gaming machine that also does media well.

I don't agree. The updates are only making it a better allways on universal media box hub.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I don't agree. The updates are only making it a better allways on universal media box hub.

Sure it will, they aren't mutually exclusive design considerations. Microsoft barely talk media or Kinect any more, their focus is clearly on games and that's the image they are wanting to project so it's inevitable the design language for whatever Xbox One redesign comes next will reflect this.

 

[eastmen]

If you say so , the media stuff has been a big part of the last few updates. The box is more capable of being a media hub than it was at launch and they haven't removed any of the features.

I'm not sure why they would want to take a quiet box and shrink it into a noisy box.

Your still going to need the same ram which is going to keep the board larger than it has to be and you still have to account for a god awful optical drive .

So unless they want to go the other way and create a noisy small box like the ps4 I don't see why they would bother when 16nm is not far behind 20nm and would actually let them reduce the size of teh console while keeping it quiet

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If you say so , the media stuff has been a big part of the last few updates. The box is more capable of being a media hub than it was at launch and they haven't removed any of the features.

Not if I say so, just listen to what Microsoft say (or don't say) at media events like E3 or Gamescom. They aren't taking away from media but equally it's not a defining priority and doesn't need a massive box to do well.

I'm not sure why they would want to take a quiet box and shrink it into a noisy box. Your still going to need the same ram which is going to keep the board larger than it has to be and you still have to account for a god awful optical drive.

Why does it have to be noisy? RAM doesn't need spacing out so far around the board. I've never seen a DDR3 design with RAM taking up so much space. There are other optical drives.

So unless they want to go the other way and create a noisy small box like the ps4 I don't see why they would bother when 16nm is not far behind 20nm and would actually let them reduce the size of teh console while keeping it quiet

Noisy? My PS4 is very quiet. And 16nm is "just around the corner" ? What's your source for this?

 

[Pressure]

I'm not sure why people are obessed with size. The xbox one is silent , i wouldn't trade that for size. Its not like people carry these around playing games.

Homes in Japan and China are much smaller in average than the western world. Size does matter. Slap the Wii U next to the Xbox One and you will see why.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Maybe, but did those people who bought a fat PS2 stop buying games? Because that's really what matters. The better scenario for Sony would be those people then buying a Slim PS2 (assuming they are sold at profit). The same can be true for Microsoft.

Ideally you want to grow your customer base, i.e. not just have everybody who bought an original Xbox One replace it with a Xbox One Slim, but even this will likely result in second hand sales to new owners - cheaper consoles, lower barrier to entry, new customers.

Do it Microsoft, do it

Are you another of those people who only reads the first line or two and then replies? At the end of my post:

That wouldn't affect sales though, so it's not an issue that's worth considering. More important to attract new users, and there's the added bonus of potentially selling to the same customers who want the New and Improved and pass their Old and Inferior to someone down the line.

 

[FarticusMaximus]

I could see many benefits to getting a slim X1 to market for 2015 holidays. 2 years is pretty quick for a slim model, but it's looking likely this will be a shorter gen than last and it appears that the X1 design lends itself to shrinkage more readily than many console designs.

MS want to drive sales but not slit their own throats by selling at a loss. A big deal has been made of hardware profitability this gen, certainly compared to the early loss leader model of last gen Sony and MS consoles.

If they have the process to build a smaller, cheaper, cooler SoC then I'd imagine they would want to pair that with a smaller, cheaper heat management system, motherboard and case.

Other downstream savings on smaller products also include packaging, shipping and storage. I don't know how significant those downstream savings would be though, as the X1 is a big console but the packaging is fairly compact.

As long as those savings outweigh the retooling costs within a reasonable timespan, and bearing in mind the promotional opportunities of a slim release and cheap fatty bundles for xmas, I'd say it would make sense to head down that path asap.

Having said all that, MS traditionally have not moved quickly with slim revisions (or at all with the OG Xbox). They would also need to be very VERY sure that they don't have cooling issues with a new revision. They have regained a little credibility with regards to hardware reliability since the RROD fiasco and cannot afford another bad design.

Of course there is also the rumour of a possible optical drive-less revision. Surely they would not consider using the same case for that model?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I love the diffrence in naraitive when you look at this and the amd thread for thier next card.

In that thread people believe 20nm wont be enough of a step to do anything and it will actually cost more than a 28nm .

In this thread people think we will get a slim xbox one because of 20nm.

That is because the currently available 20nm process is meant for lower speed/powered SOCs instead of high power/speed discrete GPUs.

I don't see a need for a slim model either, the current unit looks and feels very good, but considering that PS4 already has more powerful SOC in a much smaller case and this shrink should yield 25-30% power savings, a much slimmer model could easily be manufactured if that was something Microsoft would want to do.

The 16nm TSMC process people are mentioning isn't really a huge leap from the 20nm SOC process for lower powered chips and it only offers very small, much smaller density benefit than those figures would imply. I don't think MS is going to hurry to take their chip there. The jump from 28nm to 20nm SOC is much bigger and meaningful for their chip. Or that's how I have understood it anyway.

edit: I do have to say though that traditionally new form factors have been very good in boosting or rejuvenating sales. IF Xbox One sales continue to struggle, a new fresh start with a new unit might be feasible.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Making the console smaller will save them money, so they'll do it. It's a supply chain win. They won't sacrifice how quiet it is though. As much at the talk at gaming conventions has switched to games, they are not at all abandoning the xbox one as a media device. They need it to continue to be quiet and efficient for home theaters.

I'd still love to see them come out with a smaller unit without the optical drive for those that want it. Paired with a lower power APU, they could probably make the thing fairly tiny.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Making the console smaller will save them money, so they'll do it.

Why weren't other consoles reduced in size with every die shrink?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Why weren't other consoles reduced in size with every die shrink?

It probably depends on whether they can save a meaningful amount of space to make it worth it. Xbox One is mostly a big empty case. Reducing the heat output from the APU will be the first big step towards making a smaller unit.

Plus, last gen they tended to try to make them quieter before they made them smaller. Xbox One is quite big and silent. It has a lot of room to shrink, and if they can maintain it being quiet I think they'll shrink it. More Xbox Ones per palette, more Xbox Ones in a smaller space in storage, more xbox ones in a smaller space on shelving.

 

[AlNom]

It'd probably help if they can do something about the DDR3 wire layout.

more Xbox Ones in a smaller space in storage

Must... resist... troll comment.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Are you another of those people who only reads the first line or two and then replies? At the end of my post:

Only on Fridays. I wasn't so much as responding to you as fleshing out my thinking from my earlier post.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

but it's looking likely this will be a shorter gen than last

What do you think supports this view? I'm not saying you're wrong but I don't see any evidence that leads me to think that will happen.

I think it's just way too early and both companies will be keen to extract the maximum amount of profit before even hinting there is something new coming.

 

[dagamer]

That is because the currently available 20nm process is meant for lower speed/powered SOCs instead of high power/speed discrete GPUs.

I don't see a need for a slim model either, the current unit looks and feels very good, but considering that PS4 already has more powerful SOC in a much smaller case and this shrink should yield 25-30% power savings, a much slimmer model could easily be manufactured if that was something Microsoft would want to do.

The 16nm TSMC process people are mentioning isn't really a huge leap from the 20nm SOC process for lower powered chips and it only offers very small, much smaller density benefit than those figures would imply. I don't think MS is going to hurry to take their chip there. The jump from 28nm to 20nm SOC is much bigger and meaningful for their chip. Or that's how I have understood it anyway.

edit: I do have to say though that traditionally new form factors have been very good in boosting or rejuvenating sales. IF Xbox One sales continue to struggle, a new fresh start with a new unit might be feasible.

I thought starting with 20nm, there isn't a different LP or HPM fab process from TSMC anymore. Just a single one.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I thought starting with 20nm, there isn't a different LP or HPM fab process from TSMC anymore. Just a single one.

Yes, but the 20SOC and 16FF are entering the market quite close to each other or was supposed to anyway. They offer very similar density benefits compared to 28nm, but other characteristics have larger differences in favour of the 16FF. the 20Soc does not appear to be very attractive to the GPU makers, but MS could get nice size reduction for their chip on it.

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[dagamer]

Yes, but the 20SOC and 16FF are entering the market quite close to each other or was supposed to anyway. They offer very similar density benefits compared to 28nm, but other characteristics have larger differences in favour of the 16FF. the 20Soc does not appear to be very attractive to the GPU makers, but MS could get nice size reduction for their chip on it.

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I assume Apple is going to gobble up first past at new TSMC processes anyway since they are willing to pay, so we're looking at 2016 honestly.

A form factor redesign is as much marketing as it is tech. That's perhaps they reason why they might do it so early.

 

[McHuj]

It's also a possibility that the 20nm APU won't be made by TSMC, but by Global Foundries as they also have a 20nm process.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I assume Apple is going to gobble up first past at new TSMC processes anyway since they are willing to pay, so we're looking at 2016 honestly.

You mean Apple's customers are willing to pay

 

[east of eastside]

I'm predicting that you will see the 20nm internal board revision w/ original Xbox One case H2 '15 for that Fall/holiday season. For E3 2016, I think you will see the Xbox One Slim based in 20nm APU and a comprehensive redesign of the board, memory configuration, and internal components.

The first 20nm debut will be primarily to increase margins and allow the Xbox One to sell at $299 retail with a bundled game profitably.

The 2016 Xbox One Slim launched at E3 will coincide with a total transformation of the system: DX12, Windows 10 based OS and app and ecosystem (Cortana) w/ redesigned UI, and new slim form factor. Perhaps an all-digital version will debut along with it.