XBox One 20nm APU revision possibilities *spawn*

[iroboto]

News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

Interesting.

I d like to hear from somewhere with better insghts on this so we can clear up if this is indeed the case

It would be the first time ever in console history to see such a drastic move. I cannot comment on how impossible it is, I don't know many GPUs that can sustain a 150-200MHz upclock without improved cooling (and a high quality chip) not to mention equal cooling on the RAM. Given esram will be moving in tandem this is one less factor to worry about.

There is very little information about SOC GPU overclocking as well.

But if X1 could have always handled 1000+ MHz it would beg the question why not just launch with it?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But if X1 could have always handled 1000+ MHz it would beg the question why not just launch with it?

The suggestion is that launch units couldn't cope with 1GHz GPU at launch in suitable numbers (like, maybe only 20% of dies could), although some could. So you increase the clock speed, kill some (lots of) units and not others, and replace the dead consoles. That was option 2. The first option, luck of the drawer "the new system update cannot run faster on your console than your friends. You spent just as much money as they did but are getting an inferior experience. Tough shit, please buy a new XB1 if you want the New and Improved games," is unlikely to be well received.

As to why it's never been done before, it's because it'd cost a crazy amount of money for dubious gains, although MS are in the position to throw away lots of money to make their platform stronger. Basically a 1.5 revision early on enough to be a new relaunch, as long as MS are willing to scrub the costs of the first year.

I'm sure MisterXMedia is telling his disciples this is a Real Thing happening next Spring - they just gotta believe.

 

[LightHeaven]

Xbone do seem to have cooling room, MS pushed the limit on how hot the console could run while still being silent. If they lift that requirement for launch consoles (and newer models become the new silent all the time) this could be possible.

But I don't see they doing it.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

I'm sure MisterXMedia is telling his disciples this is a Real Thing happening next Spring - they just gotta believe.

No, it won't be a clock upgrade; the hardware miraculously multiplies APUs. The Xbox One has three of them don't-you-know. *ahem*

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Let's not turn this into a crazy-talk thread. Edit - Spawned crazy-talk thread. Knock yourselves out! There's already a discussion on an upclockable console somewhere. The only news here is that a 20 nm APU has been designed (shock, horror) if people want to try and argue that now an upclocked console is a great plan in the relevant thread. But as that's a hypothetical discussion, this news doesn't change that argument.

 

[Nesh]

You're confusing 'interesting' with 'bollocks'.

 

[east of eastside]

What would have been the specific technical restriction for not doing both the GPU upclock and the CU unlock before launch? TDP, power consumption, reliability?

Makes it questionable whether the 2 CU's can be unlocked at this point if it was technically possible, along with the GPU upclock, to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I cannot comment on how impossible it is, I don't know many GPUs that can sustain a 150-200MHz upclock without improved cooling (and a high quality chip) not to mention equal cooling on the RAM.

I don't think up clocks are remotely realistic and at the risk of adding fuel to the fire of insanity, Microsoft's cooling solution for Xbox One was engineered to last 10 years (at whatever RPM the fans max out at given the current thermal envelope, however they likely have the flexibility to run the fans much higher at the expense of increased noise, vibration and certain premature failure.

Having read Anand's analysis of Jaguar core's power/thermal characteristics, I'd say it's extremely doubtful they can crank significantly more out of the APU.

I don't know if Ranger's estimates on the cost to replace/upgrade sold Xbox One consoles is near the mark but even half his $1.8Bn estimate is way to move to win something that's only important to fanboys and armchair engineers

 

[dobwal]

Xbone do seem to have cooling room, MS pushed the limit on how hot the console could run while still being silent. If they lift that requirement for launch consoles (and newer models become the new silent all the time) this could be possible.

But I don't see they doing it.

I have a hard seeing how MS put a i7 4650U (181 mm2), 8 GBs LPDDR3, a 512 GB SDD, battery and 12 inch screen in the form factor of the surface pro 3. But yet double up on the size of the apu, drop the battery and display and the XB1 requires roughly 10X the amount of space.

The xb1 seems like an ultra conservative design that place more emphasis on noise, cost and reliability than its does size.

 

[function]

3x the price, no optical drive, no mechanical drive, a whiny little fan and lots o' throttlin.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

I have a hard seeing how MS put a i7 4650U (181 mm2), 8 GBs LPDDR3, a 512 GB SDD, battery and 12 inch screen in the form factor of the surface pro 3. But yet double up on the size of the apu, drop the battery and display and the XB1 requires roughly 10X the amount of space.

The xb1 seems like an ultra conservative design that place more emphasis on noise, cost and reliability than its does size.

It is a conservative design, but the size of the chip doesn't matter, it's the power it uses. i7 4650U is a 15W chip, that's why it can be in the Surface Pro. The chip in Xbox One is around 100W if I'm not mistaken too badly.

 

[dobwal]

It is a conservative design, but the size of the chip doesn't matter, it's the power it uses. i7 4650U is a 15W chip, that's why it can be in the Surface Pro. The chip in Xbox One is around 100W if I'm not mistaken too badly.

Yeah, it uses more power and I don't expect the xb1 hardware could readily fit into something the size of the surface pro. But the form factor is much bigger than it could be.

There doesn't exist a large disparity between the noise produced by the PS4 and XB1. Yet the PS4 is exists in a smaller form factor, makes use of an internal psu, uses more power hungry ram and employs a bigger gpu.

I wouldn't be surprised if MS produced a Slim using 20nm parts. It probably could produce a smaller form factor with 28 nm parts if noise/reliability/cost wasn't as highly prioritized versus size.

 

[Dave Baumann]

A "bigger GPU" doesn't really matter, what matters is the die size, frequencies and the voltage(s) being applied to it.

 

[LightHeaven]

I have a hard seeing how MS put a i7 4650U (181 mm2), 8 GBs LPDDR3, a 512 GB SDD, battery and 12 inch screen in the form factor of the surface pro 3. But yet double up on the size of the apu, drop the battery and display and the XB1 requires roughly 10X the amount of space.

The xb1 seems like an ultra conservative design that place more emphasis on noise, cost and reliability than its does size.

Yeah, imo, they are super conservative. But they wanted a silent green box, and I don't see they dropping it, even if just for launch consoles. Perhaps if launch game truly were the baseline performance of the console, but as has been pointed out by some devs, and it's already showing on newer games, the console was plagued by performance problems that shouldn't been there and most likely are either fixed or going to be very soon (things like api with huge cpu overhead and whatnot)... But now even though Ps4 still outperforms it, they might deem the difference not worth to act on.

Edit:

3x the price, no optical drive, no mechanical drive, a whiny little fan and lots o' throttlin.

That's where a good portion of the price goes to, no? (SSD, Also touch screen, pen...)

 

[dobwal]

I understand the reasoning behind the design of the form factor. I just look at sp3 and doubt that MS lacked the ability or that the hardware presented constraints that made a smaller form factor impossible.

The Xbox1 looks like a low power hardware design in a big power form factor with ample room for size reduction thats not totally dependent on hardware shrinks.

I can see the XB1 Slim being almost as small as the PS2 Slim in the future.

 

[eastmen]

Just think in 2 or 3 years how small they can make a xbox one with no bluray drive and a 3 TB hardrive. I would upgrade to that in a second

 

[east of eastside]

Been reading some articles on AMD's 20m plans and it's my opinion the 20nm reference is a soon upcoming revision of the original APU that was planned along the original 28nm design.

There is no "Slim" 20nm X1.. It's just a planned revision of the original with a smaller and cheaper to manufacture chip that will probably hit retail around March or April of next year.

The current $349 price reduction may be to clear the retail channel of the existing 28nm X1 this winter, with the next batch to manufacture, and hit retail in spring, being the new 20nm revision.

AMD won't have 14nm APU's until late '15/16, and, thus, there is no "Slim" Xbox One until '16.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

There is no "Slim" 20nm X1.. It's just a planned revision of the original with a smaller and cheaper to manufacture chip that will probably hit retail around March or April of next year.

They are almost certainly looking at shrinking the console. Just making it smaller will result in it using less materials and take up less space (warehousing and shipping) which will all contribute to saving money.

It's unnecessarily enormous.

 

[east of eastside]

They are almost certainly looking at shrinking the console. Just making it smaller will result in it using less materials and take up less space (warehousing and shipping) which will all contribute to saving money.

It's unnecessarily enormous.

Well, that's what I'm saying.. There will be a Slim Xbox One, but not until '16 with the 14nm APU justifying an entire redesign.

The 20nm APU is just a planned revision of the original 28nm to lower manufacturing cost, but it will still be the same, original Xbox One model, just with an update chip inside.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Well, that's what I'm saying.. There will be a Slim Xbox One, but not until '16 with the 14nm APU justifying an entire redesign.

I think they'll do it sooner - as soon as they can contractually, by which I mean as long as their production plan doesn't include long-term contracts for the current chassis, or make it prohibitively expensive to get out of it. Making Xbox One smaller tomorrow will mean every console produced thereafter cheaper in every respect.

I also think it'll be good for Microsoft in terms of image. This is the new 'Xbox One'. Forget all that crazy shit from 2013