Xbox Business Update Podcast | Xbox Everywhere Direction Discussion

[eastmen]

No this is not correct there isnt a distinct pool of ram for CPU and GPU they share the same physical memory. I've come to conclusion most people dont know what unified memory is and its benefits. I have heard Moore's law is dead claim Series X doesnt have unified memory as well which is shocking because he's a tech Youtuber. Yes PC memory subsystem works fine but there are benefits of using unified memory especially with closed systems like consoles.

No I am talking about in a split ram set up. CPU has a direct bus to DDR5 While GPU has direct bus to GDDR. So in that set up there shouldn't be any contention for the bandwidth. DDR5 ram is much cheaper than the newer GDDR ram forms.

Currently in the xbox series you have 16gigs of ram for both CPU/GPU. But in a split ram console you could do 8-16gigs of DDR5 and 16-24gigs of GDDR ram. It should work out to be a lot cheaper for the ram than 32gigs of gddr ram

Again there is no distinction between CPU and GPU memory with unified memory architecture. Only difference(A difference MS will likely not repeat) exists on the Series X is there is lower bandwidth interleaved memory on the Series X with 6GB of the GDDR modules having access to only 336GB/s of memory bandwidth but this 6GB of physical memory along with the 10GB of interleaved high memory bandwidth can both be accessed by both the CPU and GPU. You dont have this contrivance on the PS5 because they went with 8 2GB modules on a 256 bit bus at 14Gb/s per pin for 448GB/s so no interleaving to achieve different memory bandwidth for different ram modules. I strongly recommend reading up on the advantages and disadvantages of a unified memory architecture. You get some latency pros and cons as well with going with unified memory. But the overwhelming empirical data supports this approach for consoles.

Like I said , I am talking about a split pool set up.

 

[Cyan]

As for the discussion about a "next gen" Xbox in 2026, I don't see them wanting to take a loss on hardware anymore. They're actions and words are telling another story. And a 599$ price would mean less than 15 millions lifetime, looking at current sales numbers. I don't think i am exaggerating when I say that the brand is dead in Europe. About 700k worldwide in three months on year 3 and a half is pretty grim. And Switch 2 is coming.

They can try and hope for a miracle with a traditional console, make a 600$ console for the fans without subsiding it, or create the rumoured oem's third party consoles. Something is coming, but they don't want to compete with Sony anymore.

True all that.

Competing with Sony is impossible. As you said Nintendo stopped competing with both Sony and MS a long ago when they realised a typical console wouldn't do the trick and they learnt that twice or thrice (N64, GC, WiiU).

If MS wants to create a traditional console it's fine. But adding to that a bit of Windows tweaking and a easy to use plug & play hybrid for OEMs or whatever makes sense just to give console and PC some middle ground where you can have a bit of everything, which is very MS like at heart.

 

[QPlayer]

No I am talking about in a split ram set up. CPU has a direct bus to DDR5 While GPU has direct bus to GDDR. So in that set up there shouldn't be any contention for the bandwidth. DDR5 ram is much cheaper than the newer GDDR ram forms.

Currently in the xbox series you have 16gigs of ram for both CPU/GPU. But in a split ram console you could do 8-16gigs of DDR5 and 16-24gigs of GDDR ram. It should work out to be a lot cheaper for the ram than 32gigs of gddr ram

Like I said , I am talking about a split pool set up.

The split pool setup is only possible if MS manufactures only the CPU and NPU on one chip together with DDR6, OEM. PC VGAs can be used for this.

Anyway, APU and shared memory is always a cheaper solution. But if that's how they want really powerful hardware, they'll sell it for $1,000. Is this better, or the OEM where they can give you the basic model for $300, for which everyone buys the VGA they want separately?

 

[tuna]

MS was able to buy developers and entire publishers based on their own inflated gamepass numbers.

MS was able to buy developers and entire publishers with the money they have in the bank.

 

[eastmen]

The split pool setup is only possible if MS manufactures only the CPU and NPU on one chip together with DDR6, OEM. PC VGAs can be used for this.

Anyway, APU and shared memory is always a cheaper solution. But if that's how they want really powerful hardware, they'll sell it for $1,000. Is this better, or the OEM where they can give you the basic model for $300, for which everyone buys the VGA they want separately?

Why can't the APU have two external busses ?

 

[Cyan]

Actually I went to visit my young siblings and asked them if they still wanted to use the Gamepass subscription and to my surprise they told me they prefer buying the titles and owning them.

that's not incompatible with gamepass at all. In fact one of the advantages of gamepass is that you can buy the games at a discount -if not I wouldn't have gamepass-. As @see colon mentioned, gamepass is a long term solution. Games sales start to sharply decrease a month after launch, and a net monthly income compensates the downsides of gamepass when launching a game day one.

Gamepass is an excellent business concept. Additionally it allows people to enjoy their hobby without having millions of people, who can't access the games any other way, pirating your games.

 

[QPlayer]

We have already talked a lot about the possible OEM model, but there is one important thing. If MS chooses this path, it will have to be solved so that the PC VGAs can fit into this XboxPC case. You could say that it should be a normal PC case and that's it, but I think the console design is necessary. Which is the smallest possible design that fits up to 35 cm long VGA? Perhaps the VGA could be placed on the back of the box, adjusted, creating a slimmer design.

 

[Cyan]

the brand is dead in Europe

yep, and in Asia the Xbox is already buried, Europe to follow.

Microsoft must go their own way and forget Sony. Don't compete with Sony nor imitate them.

They should put the Xbox brand out of the way since it has fallen into disgrace and out of favor, and revamp themselves like Nintendo did when everything went to shit.

Create something different. Xbox is a brand that no one loves. They aren't losing much, Xbox as a name imho, doesn't get anyone hot.

 

[QPlayer]

Create something different. Xbox is a brand that no one loves. They aren't losing much, Xbox as a name imho, doesn't get anyone hot.

The Xbox brand name is significant, everyone in the world knows it. Coupled with a lot of good games, Gamepass Day1, and a new POPULAR feature, it can be a hit.

 

[Cyan]

The Xbox brand name is significant, everyone in the world knows it. Coupled with a lot of good games, Gamepass Day1, and a new POPULAR feature, it can be a hit.

after so many years.... I don't see any change, that's the issue. Xbox is Microsoft's eternal promise (like those politicians hoping for a chance and saying "it will happen this year" -yet nothing happens-). The issue is that where I live Xbox is associated with having a few Xbox games and -if you are lucky- consoles hidden on the hardest to see shelves of the stores, with being inferior to Sony and so on and so forth.

Even something as silly as Xboy sounds better. Nintendo had the N64, the brand didn't sell they changed it to Gamecube. GC was a failure and they changed the name to Wii, it was successful and Nintendo kept the name with the WiiU, but got rid of it to create the Switch given the low WiiU sales.

Imo, Microsoft "something" sounds better, since you associate Microsoft with the console, but not Xbox. They could keep the name Xbox in the USA, but for the rest of the world I am not seeing it.

 

[eastmen]

after so many years.... I don't see any change, that's the issue. Xbox is Microsoft's eternal promise (like those politicians hoping for a chance and saying "it will happen this year" -yet nothing happens-). The issue is that where I live Xbox is associated with having a few Xbox games and -if you are lucky- consoles hidden on the hardest to see shelves of the stores, with being inferior to Sony and so on and so forth.

Even something as silly as Xboy sounds better. Nintendo had the N64, the brand didn't sell they changed it to Gamecube. GC was a failure and they changed the name to Wii, it was successful and Nintendo kept the name with the WiiU, but got rid of it to create the Switch given the low WiiU sales.

Imo, Microsoft "something" sounds better, since you associate Microsoft with the console, but not Xbox. They could keep the name Xbox in the USA, but for the rest of the world I am not seeing it.

Hogh wash

Nes- 61.91m sales
Super Nes 49.1m sales
N64 32m sales
Gamecube 22m sales
Wii 102m
Wii u 13.56m sales
Switch 141m sales and counting


Xbox 24m
360 84m
One 58m
Series 22m and climbing

What is to stop the next xbox from being a wii or switch to the market place ?

So far MS hasn't had a dud like the wii u. Xbox sereis will end up above the majority of Nintendo consoles install base.


Names don't really matter its already Microsoft xbox . Microsoft something else doesn't really do anything. People made fun of the wii for a long time about how it sounded like someone had to go to the bathroom but it still sold extremely well

 

[Johnny Awesome]

More panicking in here again I see.

Qplayer is right. Great hardware and games will make the difference.

I'll explain why GP makes sense - Subscribers spend roughly $140 + MTX per year on GP. Over the 5 years the average person owns an Xbox that's equivalent to an attach rate of 10 games per unit. That is considered good in its own right, but additionally MS gets a larger share of the revenue. It also smooths out the revenue cycle, lowers marketing costs because you really just have to promote GP instead of each individual game, and allows for smaller projects to succeed.

The math is simple 50 million users = $7B in annual revenue - $2B for 6 AAA ~$350m games - $1B extra 3rd party content - $1 B in delivery costs = $3B in profit. Then put the same games out on PS/Nin 2 years later. Rolling in money. 100 million users? Wheelbarrows of money.

It works less well if you only have 30 million users and don't put out 6 AAA games to get more people to subscribe. That's what MS is working on right now.

The GP lineup this year is potential INCREDIBLE: Persona 3, Tales of Arise, Diablo IV, Hellblade 2, Towerborne, FS 2024, Ara, Age of Mythology, CoD Black Ops, Avowed, Starfield Shattered Space, Indiana Jones, GaaS content (Halo, Forza, Sea of Thieves), S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

What is to stop the next xbox from being a wii or switch to the market place ?

Generally, MS usually stops MS from being successful in the consumer hardware marketplace. Latest example is, based off OLED orders there is 28x more interest in Apple's new OLED Ipad than there is in the OLED versions of their "Copilot" Surface Pro. Off to a swinging start with their "AI PC!"

Just like MS is stopping MS from being a successful game publisher thanks to Gamepass. I like the many on here justifying the business model exclusively so they can get cheap triple a games. "Just put out a ton more triple a games for my cheap subscription, you'll 'make' a ton of money that I don't have to pay much for!" Yeah, exactly.

That being said if MS continues down it's path I do look forward to the next "Xbox" being a subsized ROG Ally kind of thing, that 70% of customers put Steam on. Thanks for subsidizing an entire console and not just triple A games on launch day MS!

Because of course the reason the Steamdeck works subsidized is because 99% of customers don't want to go through the giant (to them) hassle of either pirating or paying for Windows and then installing it as an entirely new OS (especially since they'd probably just install Steam on it anyway). But installing Steam by itself? 98% of customers can install an app, and you can bet Valve will make it as easy and obvious as possible.

 

[Cyan]

More panicking in here again I see.

Qplayer is right. Great hardware and games will make the difference.

I'll explain why GP makes sense - Subscribers spend roughly $140 + MTX per year on GP. Over the 5 years the average person owns an Xbox that's equivalent to an attach rate of 10 games per unit. That is considered good in its own right, but additionally MS gets a larger share of the revenue. It also smooths out the revenue cycle, lowers marketing costs because you really just have to promote GP instead of each individual game, and allows for smaller projects to succeed.

The math is simple 50 million users = $7B in annual revenue - $2B for 6 AAA ~$350m games - $1B extra 3rd party content - $1 B in delivery costs = $3B in profit. Then put the same games out on PS/Nin 2 years later. Rolling in money. 100 million users? Wheelbarrows of money.

It works less well if you only have 30 million users and don't put out 6 AAA games to get more people to subscribe. That's what MS is working on right now.

The GP lineup this year is potential INCREDIBLE: Persona 3, Tales of Arise, Diablo IV, Hellblade 2, Towerborne, FS 2024, Ara, Age of Mythology, CoD Black Ops, Avowed, Starfield Shattered Space, Indiana Jones, GaaS content (Halo, Forza, Sea of Thieves), S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2.

Age of Mythology is a game I am going to buy day one on Gamepass of course. I am intrigued about Avowed, Indiana Jones and games like Ara or Stalker 2. Other than that I don't buy many games on day one any more. The last one was Resident Evil 4 Remake, System Shock Remake and that's it.

Other times I just got a game on Steam that I liked after playing it on Gamepass some time later, like Resident Evil 3 Remake -not a superb game but it keeps you entertained-.

 

[eastmen]

Generally, MS usually stops MS from being successful in the consumer hardware marketplace. Latest example is, based off OLED orders there is 28x more interest in Apple's new OLED Ipad than there is in the OLED versions of their "Copilot" Surface Pro. Off to a swinging start with their "AI PC!"

Just like MS is stopping MS from being a successful game publisher thanks to Gamepass. I like the many on here justifying the business model exclusively so they can get cheap triple a games. "Just put out a ton more triple a games for my cheap subscription, you'll 'make' a ton of money that I don't have to pay much for!" Yeah, exactly.

That being said if MS continues down it's path I do look forward to the next "Xbox" being a subsized ROG Ally kind of thing, that 70% of customers put Steam on. Thanks for subsidizing an entire console and not just triple A games on launch day MS!

Because of course the reason the Steamdeck works subsidized is because 99% of customers don't want to go through the giant (to them) hassle of either pirating or paying for Windows and then installing it as an entirely new OS (especially since they'd probably just install Steam on it anyway). But installing Steam by itself? 98% of customers can install an app, and you can bet Valve will make it as easy and obvious as possible.

IPAD has always been more popular of a device since its part of IOS and iphone. MS doesn't have any lock in like Apple does.

I disagree with you on gamepass stoping them from being a successful game publisher. Game pass is pretty new to the market and MS has been building up devs to support it. We will start to see what game pass can do as bigger games come to the market.


Steam Deck isn't subsidized.

 

[Nisaaru]

Just like MS is stopping MS from being a successful game publisher thanks to Gamepass.

I don't buy that.

I like the many on here justifying the business model exclusively so they can get cheap triple a games. "Just put out a ton more triple a games for my cheap subscription, you'll 'make' a ton of money that I don't have to pay much for!" Yeah, exactly.

GP surely spared me wasting money on Halo6. But if I had bought it at full price I would have been as disappointed as Halo5 and after the Halo4 disaster I might have come to the conclusion that I won't buy another Halo to not waste money which means I would hardly give Halo7 another chance.

But here is the rub. Most people seem to play forever Games these days. I mostly stopped mindlessly buying other AAA Games at release because I don't have the time and a huge backlog. I just managed to complete AC Odyssey late last year after 6 years and that was one of the last few AAA games I got at full price. Currently I try to "complete" Division2 and then FC7/WD3 is still waiting.

How do you generate more money from these gamers?

You make them pay for a subscription service and as a bonus they "may" even find other content they would find interesting...

On top of that people interesting in gaming have less and less money due the economy so providing some service to get their money makes sense. Surely better than producing AAA titles hardly anybody actually buys anymore.

That being said if MS continues down it's path I do look forward to the next "Xbox" being a subsized ROG Ally kind of thing, that 70% of customers put Steam on. Thanks for subsidizing an entire console and not just triple A games on launch day MS!

So you actually think they didn't *produce* more AAA titles or more or less disappointing AAA titles because they financed GP? Sorry but that sounds like imaginary nonsense to me. There isn't even the slightest evidence for that. They surely bought a lot of studios to actually produce more games.

IMHO the disappointing releases in the last few years were caused by management/vision problems(Halo) and most likely pressure to release them+CovidBS in case of (Forza 2023, Starfield) and not by "money".

Producing new AAA games seem to take 5-6 years these days unless you have a well oiled production pipeline with an already successful game design.

 

[eastmen]

Microsoft's management.

you could have said that about the other companies before their turn around

 

[Seanspeed]

What is to stop the next xbox from being a wii or switch to the market place ?

So far MS hasn't had a dud like the wii u. Xbox sereis will end up above the majority of Nintendo consoles install base.

Sorry to keep piling on, but Microsoft's brand value is meagre compared to Nintendo and their massive supply of super popular IP.

Nintendo has had a history of platform duds, but the fact that they can come back with insane successes shows their reputation only gets dents from this, not gaping, irreparable holes. They are capable of regularly reinventing themselves and providing experiences you cannot find anywhere else, and generally make extremely good use of their large library of popular franchises. Nintendo has made a deliberate strategy of trying to distinguish their platform as something different than just a typical console competitor.

Microsoft does not have the cache or capability of doing the same thing. Microsoft's base is built on being that 'traditional' console competitor, and to try and reinvent itself would leave it basically starting from scratch, and without any great history of successfully leveraging its franchises to sell people on the new direction.

Nintendo is a bit of an enigma. It's a bit like asking why some entity cant just replicate Apple's success.

 

[Cyan]

How do you generate more money from these gamers?

You make them pay for a subscription service and as a bonus they "may" even find other content they would find interesting...

On top of that people interesting in gaming have less and less money due the economy so providing some service to get their money makes sense. Surely better than producing AAA titles hardly anybody actually buys anymore.



So you actually think they didn't *produce* more AAA titles or more or less disappointing AAA titles because they financed GP? Sorry but that sounds like imaginary nonsense to me. There isn't even the slightest evidence for that. They surely bought a lot of studios to actually produce more games.

IMHO the disappointing releases in the last few years were caused by management/vision problems(Halo) and most likely pressure to release them+CovidBS in case of (Forza 2023, Starfield) and not by "money".

Producing new AAA games seem to take 5-6 years these days unless you have a well oiled production pipeline with an already successful game design.

very true, in my case, all the family games on PC GamePass that I have played with my nephews, karts, Disney, etc., with a local co-op and they get such a kick out of it..., 99,9% of AAAs don't give you that.

And they love Forza Horizon 5, they love it, they play it for more time than Mario Kart, although it is not co-op but they can play with two controllers, one accelerates and the other controls the steering wheel..., they have a blast .

In regards of buying AAA games day one,I bought a bunch of games day 1 a year and a half ago because they supported Intel's XeSS and when I realized, I had between €1000 to €2000 less in my pocket, and I haven't finished many of them. And I am not rich.

I also didn't have PC gamepass for more than 1 year and recently I re-subscribed because it has very nice games to play with my nephews and family (disney games, karts games, Peppa Pig -which they can play with 2 controllers even being a single player game, etc-. Great decision I made to return to pc gamepass.

If you like a game you can buy it on gamepass, like I purchased Persona 5 day one on pc gamepass, and if not it's okay. And well, sometimes I played a game on gamepass and ended up buying it either on the service or on Steam -better mod support-, like Resident Evil 3 Remake, and several others.

 

[eastmen]

very true, in my case, all the family games on PC GamePass that I have played with my nephews, karts, Disney, etc., with a local co-op and they get such a kick out of it..., 99,9% of AAAs don't give you that.

And they love Forza Horizon 5, they love it, they play it for more time than Mario Kart, although it is not co-op but they can play with two controllers, one accelerates and the other controls the steering wheel..., they have a blast .

In regards of buying AAA games day one,I bought a bunch of games day 1 a year and a half ago because they supported Intel's XeSS and when I realized, I had between €1000 to €2000 less in my pocket, and I haven't finished many of them. And I am not rich.

I also didn't have PC gamepass for more than 1 year and recently I re-subscribed because it has very nice games to play with my nephews and family (disney games, karts games, Peppa Pig -which they can play with 2 controllers even being a single player game, etc-. Great decision I made to return to pc gamepass.

If you like a game you can buy it on gamepass, like I purchased Persona 5 day one on pc gamepass, and if not it's okay. And well, sometimes I played a game on gamepass and ended up buying it either on the service or on Steam -better mod support-, like Resident Evil 3 Remake, and several others.

During the 360 generation I bought day and date games monthly. spending like 1k a year or more. During the xbox one generation I dropped down to 4-5 a year. Now I am buying 1-2 a year. I just don't have the time I used to have and there are so many issues with game at launch now.

What I do have is a subscription to xbox game pass ultimate.