Xbox 360 and PS3 mean the end of piracy?

[ndoogoo]

MS have said the the xbox 360 is a very secure system. Do you think the modders will finally be defeated this round?

 

[Josh378]

MS says that about their operating systems...we all know what happens after that

I'm sorry, I have to see this to believe this.....

-Josh378

 

[rusty]

there's never going to be an end to it... the more sophisticated the defences get, the more sophisticated the hackers get.


however i think the online component is going to be a big plus in reducing piracy (kind of how live does now with xbox, but on a larger scale as more people *should* end up using it).

They also said in the case of the 360 that piracy protection was actually going to be hardcoded - but as always i imagine this will be got around, it's just a matter of time really.

I even saw talk about the cases being sealed on the 360, although i have no idea of the truth of that.

i think they are going to do everything they can to make piracy harder and they may well manage to make it less widespread, but they'll never manage to *end it* unfortunately.

 

[twotonfld]

I would say the biggest protection is in the media this generation and that would be an advantage for Sony - that said, I believe that the PS3 will be modded to play DVD based games. I also believe the the X360 will also be modded to play its entire library.

I never find the will of crackers surprising. And, the hate for MS is strong in that group.

 

[notAFanB]

not an chance, wait 2 monthes for the first mods to appear

 

[Andy]

Short answer; No way!

XBox 360 uses DVD media, it's copyright protection I doubt will take that long to crack plus DVD Burners are readily available, and the fact that there is a 20GB HDD to boot, means there are many avenues to copy games.

PS3 on the other hand I'm sure will be cracked eventually, but will probably take longer than X360 to do so due to Blu-ray and the lack of Blu-ray burners for PC. PS3 will also have an HDD, of what size and whether its a separate add-on or not is yet to be revealed, but rest assure just like "HD-Loader" of this generation, something similar will likely arise.

Revolution, if also uses DVD Media, probably won't take too long to crack and should be quite easy to copy.

As for mod-chips, you can bet someone always finds a way, it's just a matter of time. The real question is, how long can you stop pirates and modchip manufacturers before they crack it?

 

[London Geezer]

If anything, it's gonna get worse. The more PC-like the consoles become, the more they open themselves up to piracy.

I mean, IBM is thinking about releasing open-source Linux for PS3?? For everyone? (PS2 had limited availability)

That's just asking for it.

 

[PC-Engine]

Short answer; No way!

XBox 360 uses DVD media, it's copyright protection I doubt will take that long to crack plus DVD Burners are readily available, and the fact that there is a 20GB HDD to boot, means there are many avenues to copy games.

PS3 on the other hand I'm sure will be cracked eventually, but will probably take longer than X360 to do so due to Blu-ray and the lack of Blu-ray burners for PC. PS3 will also have an HDD, of what size and whether its a separate add-on or not is yet to be revealed, but rest assure just like "HD-Loader" of this generation, something similar will likely arise.

Revolution, if also uses DVD Media, probably won't take too long to crack and should be quite easy to copy.

As for mod-chips, you can bet someone always finds a way, it's just a matter of time. The real question is, how long can you stop pirates and modchip manufacturers before they crack it?

Blue-ray burners will be available next year.

 

[cthellis42]

They might try harder, but there are way more determined pirates out there.

They might be able to shift the annoyance factor in doing it, though--through occasional updates and the like which hurt established methods--but that community will catch up in short order. Joe Q. Pirate, however, may just find the aggrivation of rejiggering his system all the time not worth the trouble, however.

 

[Sigma]

If anything, it's gonna get worse. The more PC-like the consoles become, the more they open themselves up to piracy.

I mean, IBM is thinking about releasing open-source Linux for PS3?? For everyone? (PS2 had limited availability)

That's just asking for it.

IBM is thinking about releasing open-source software for CELL, not the PS3...

 

[cthellis42]

IBM is thinking about releasing open-source software for CELL, not the PS3...

Yes, but I'm pretty sure that would have some--if not a lot--of carry-over use.

 

[London Geezer]

If anything, it's gonna get worse. The more PC-like the consoles become, the more they open themselves up to piracy.

I mean, IBM is thinking about releasing open-source Linux for PS3?? For everyone? (PS2 had limited availability)

That's just asking for it.

IBM is thinking about releasing open-source software for CELL, not the PS3...

Didn't know that, but as cthellis said, i really don't think it's gonna take long for hundreds of people to start programming PS3 compatible software to do all sorts of things.

 

[Frank]

As long as you can play games off-line, they can't stop it. There's a thousand crackers out there for each person who tries to lock down the security. And, as lb said, if you can run Linux on it, you can use the machine itself to do the cracking.

Then again, I think they will try and make as many on-line only games as they can, which might be totally secure. It would depend on how they handle it, and if the CPU core(s) do the actual decryption directly on the instruction stream. If there's a separate chip to do that, it could be circumvented.

I think the XboX360 will be harder to crack than the PS3. But we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why do you think XB360 harder to crack? Live!?

I don't know either way. STI were tooting DRM hardware on Cell but I've no idea how it's implemented. The open-source will enalble to crackers to see how it's done I guess which sounds like a bad idea.

Anyone know how hardware piracy controls work?

 

[Xeno]

Has AES 128 bit been cracked yet? Quick google brings up that 256 bit has never been cracked.

Approximately how big are the AES key sizes?
The AES specifies three key sizes: 128, 192 and 256 bits. In decimal terms, this means that there are approximately:

3.4 x 10^38 possible 128-bit keys;

6.2 x 10^57 possible 192-bit keys; and

1.1 x 10^77 possible 256-bit keys.

In comparison, DES keys are 56 bits long, which means there are approximately 7.2 x 10^16 possible DES keys. Thus, there are on the order of 10^21 times more AES 128-bit keys than DES 56-bit keys.

What is the chance that someone could use the "DES Cracker"-like hardware to crack an AES key?
In the late 1990s, specialized "DES Cracker" machines were built that could recover a DES key after a few hours. In other words, by trying possible key values, the hardware could determine which key was used to encrypt a message.

Assuming that one could build a machine that could recover a DES key in a second (i.e., try 2^55 keys per second), then it would take that machine approximately 149 thousand-billion (149 trillion) years to crack a 128-bit AES key. To put that into perspective, the universe is believed to be less than 20 billion years old.

http://csrc.nist.gov/CryptoToolkit/aes/aesfact.html

 

[Frank]

4. How does TC work?

TC provides for a monitoring and reporting component to be mounted in future PCs. The preferred implementation in the first phase of TC emphasised the role of a `Fritz' chip - a smartcard chip or dongle soldered to the motherboard. The current version has five components - the Fritz chip, a `curtained memory' feature in the CPU, a security kernel in the operating system (the `Nexus' in Microsoft language), a security kernel in each TC application (the `NCA' in Microsoft-speak) and a back-end infrastructure of online security servers maintained by hardware and software vendors to tie the whole thing together.

The initial version of TC had Fritz supervising the boot process, so that the PC ended up in a predictable state, with known hardware and software. The current version has Fritz as a passive monitoring component that stores the hash of the machine state on start-up. This hash is computed using details of the hardware (audio card, video card etc) and the software (O/S, drivers, etc). If the machine ends up in the approved state, Fritz will make available to the operating system the cryptographic keys needed to decrypt TC applications and data. If it ends up in the wrong state, the hash will be wrong and Fritz won't release the right key. The machine may still be able to run non-TC apps and access non-TC data, but protected material will be unavailable.

The operating system security kernel (the `Nexus') bridges the gap between the Fritz chip and the application security components (the `NCAs'). It checks that the hardware components are on the TCG approved list, that the software components have been signed, and that none of them has a serial number that has been revoked. If there are significant changes to the PC's configuration, the machine must go online to be re-certified: the operating system manages this. The result is a PC booted into a known state with an approved combination of hardware and software (whose licences have not expired). Finally, the Nexus works together with new `curtained memory' features in the CPU to stop any TC app from reading or writing another TC app's data. These new features are called `Lagrande Technology' (LT) for the Intel CPUs and `TrustZone' for the ARM.

Once the machine is in an approved state, with a TC app loaded and shielded from interference by any other software, Fritz will certify this to third parties. For example, he will do an authentication protocol with Disney to prove that his machine is a suitable recipient of `Snow White'. This will mean certifying that the PC is currently running an authorised application program - MediaPlayer, DisneyPlayer, whatever - with its NCA properly loaded and shielded by curtained memory against debuggers or other tools that could be used to rip the content. The Disney server then sends encrypted data, with a key that Fritz will use to unseal it. Fritz makes the key available only to the authorised application and only so long as the environment remains `trustworthy'. For this purpose, `trustworthy' is defined by the security policy downloaded from a server under the control of the application owner. This means that Disney can decide to release its premium content only to a media player whose author agrees to enforce certain conditions. These might include restrictions on what hardware and software you use, or where in the world you're located. They can involve payment: Disney might insist, for example, that the application collect a dollar every time you view the movie. The application itself can be rented too. The possibilities seem to be limited only by the marketers' imagination.

Source

Microsoft wants this in everything running their stuff when Longhorn comes along. XboX has most of this already.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What happens when your machine dies/gets nicked/whatever? Do you have to buy all that stuff again because you can't prove you're the owner of the material when your machine no longer matches the specification of before?

 

[Frank]

What happens when your machine dies/gets nicked/whatever? Do you have to buy all that stuff again because you can't prove you're the owner of the material when your machine no longer matches the specification of before?

Good question. I have no idea. The best example there is at the moment how these things might be handled is Steam.

 

[scificube]

Fritz sounds a little too good...

I really want piracy stopped, but is there no way to do it without me surrending my system to the software...why can't I retain any freedom? I sure hope I can.

edit:

Please don't say it'll be like Steam....good intentions manifested in bad implementations.

 

[swaaye]

MS have said the the xbox 360 is a very secure system. Do you think the modders will finally be defeated this round?

Hahah are you insane? Not a chance in hell. It will probably have far more mods. Last gen was a gen of great new steps in hacking. Now we have FAR more people interested in it.