X360 Developer Critiques Sony's PS3

[Ben-Nice]

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/712/712822p1.html

June 15, 2006 - Matt Lee, one of Microsoft's top-level game developers (and creator of Dope Wars) spoke to PC enthusiast site Ars Technica today about all things next-gen gaming. Through the fog of super-brain techno-jargon it is clear Lee is not impressed with the Sony PlayStation 3 and its Cell proccessor.

"I don't think the Cell is as well designed for game development as Sony would have you believe," Lee told the site. According to Lee the design of the PS3's Cell is more suited for "serialized streaming math code" which is common in video codecs and audio processing. This makes sense considering Sony's push for the inclusion of the next-gen Blu-Ray format in its console.

However, Lee's understanding of the PS3 leaves him unimpressed. "The PPE [Power Processing Element] appears to be essentially identical to one of the Xbox 360 cores," the developer explained, "except without the VMX128 enhancements and with half the cache. However, a much greater assortment of work has to be crammed into this single core -- all of the game loop, all of the rendering commands, and the system allegedly takes over some time as well."

Now is a good time to pause to offer some techno-jargon translation.

The PS3's Power Processing Element is not intended to perform all primary processing for the system, but rather to act as a controller for eight SPEs, or Synergistic Processing Elements. One SPE is reserved for the system OS. Another SPE serves as a backup in case one of the remaining SPEs is defective. That leaves six SPEs directly available to applications, such as Devil May Cry 4. With seven active SPEs handling most of the computational workload, Sony is betting that your PS3 games will look and run freaking awesome.

Lee, however, feels that the Xbox 360's custom triple-core PowerPC-based design is better suited to provide "cool stuff" such as the Xbox 360 Guide.

In addition, he speculates that porting games between the two next-gen behemoths will be difficult for developers. According to Lee, the X360 has more "general purpose processing power" that is more easily reallocated, because the X360's CPU cores have equal access to all of the console's memory. Sony's PS3 cell has an asymmetric nature that could, according to Lee, lead to "situations where the game has too little of one type of processing power and too much of another."

Lee warns that games will suffer because "you'll never see a PS3 title with more than 256 MB of textures at any given time, due to the split graphics and system memory banks." The X360 offers 512 MB of unified memory, which Lee says "gives developers much more flexibility in how they allocate memory for various resources."

 

[Tap In]

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31431


it's a shame that that this pissing match stuff is all that ever comes from this interview.

although that interview is lacking in real deep info, there was a lot of good solid stuff about the X360 and the tools and one little question about the PS3 turns it into cannon fodder.

 

[Guden Oden]

Look Ben... If I want an opinion on Pepsi, I don't go asking Coca-Cola about it alright?

Don't post stupid shit like that here, nothing constructive comes out of it.

 

[TurnDragoZeroV2G]

IGN makes me want to shoot myself a few more times.

So, Dave, how 'bout a 3D-oriented interview.

 

[sonyps35]

Look Ben... If I want an opinion on Pepsi, I don't go asking Coca-Cola about it alright?

Don't post stupid shit like that here, nothing constructive comes out of it.

Yeah because, it couldn't possibly be true, since the Xbox360 cant possibly have any advantages over the PS3.

 

[Tap In]

Yeah because, it couldn't possibly be true, since the Xbox360 cant possibly have any advantages over the PS3.

that's not the point

the point is that this isn't a f***** forum and talking about comments like this (as Guden says asking coke about Pepsi) leads to nothing but people being butt-hurt.

 

[Geo]

I don't mind this kind of thing.

The way I look at it, the two sides have some of the best, most trained minds in the world in this area generally, and their insights are interesting and may (that's a key word) have some value.

Are they biased? Well, duh. Their opinions should no more be taken as gospel than the "we're awesome, here's why!" opinions of the home team. Are we going to say we aren't interested in those too?

But, yeah, they do have the background to potentially know of what they speak, and you can get some visibility you might otherwise not get. Whether that is visibility of weaknesses in the other guy that the other guy certainly isn't going to volunteer for you, or weakness in the competitor's understanding of what the other guy is actually up to.

 

[sonyps35]

It's technical comments.

I dont know what the heck this forum is for. We keep getting told it is for technical discussion only when most topics are OT.

Yet when a rare technical topic with insider information comes along, whether right or wrong, it gets locked because a certain side cant handle criticism of their machine, and that side happens to have great numbers, and throws their toys out of the pram so to speak.

Why dont people point out why he was wrong? As far as I can see no good counterargument has been proposed to the general idea that xenon has greater general purpose power and that makes it superior for games. It's certainly not a new idea, as MS have been hammering it for a long time. So there has been ample time for someone to shoot it down.

I'd love it if Sony would come out and tell us what is wrong with the 360, because in doing so they would give us more technical insight. I certainly dont think that hypothetical Sony pr should be locked.

 

[Tap In]

I don't mind this kind of thing.

The way I look at it, the two sides have some of the best, most trained minds in the world in this area generally, and their insights are interesting and may (that's a key word) have some value.

Are they biased? Well, duh. Their opinions should no more be taken as gospel than the "we're awesome, here's why!" opinions of the home team. Are we going to say we aren't interested in those too?

But, yeah, they do have the background to potentially know of what they speak, and you can get some visibility you might otherwise not get. Whether that is visibility of weaknesses in the other guy that the other guy certainly isn't going to volunteer for you, or weakness in the competitor's understanding of what the other guy is actually up to.

yes. in theory I absolutely agree with you hence my first post in this thread (#2).

Sadly though some people tend to turn it into a locked thread because they don't look at things from a middle ground but from an entrenched position which must be 'defended'.

 

[bRoNx]

It's technical comments.

I dont know what the heck this forum is for. We keep getting told it is for technical discussion only when most topics are OT.

Yet when a rare technical topic with insider information comes along, whether right or wrong, it gets locked because a certain side cant handle criticism of their machine, and that side happens to have great numbers, and throws their toys out of the pram so to speak.

Why dont people point out why he was wrong? As far as I can see no good counterargument has been proposed to the general idea that xenon has greater general purpose power and that makes it superior for games. It's certainly not a new idea, as MS have been hammering it for a long time. So there has been ample time for someone to shoot it down.

I'd love it if Sony would come out and tell us what is wrong with the 360, because in doing so they would give us more technical insight. I certainly dont think that hypothetical Sony pr should be locked.

The fact that the actual thread is titled "X360 Developer Critiques Sony's PS3" should tell you that the original posted posted this not for "technical discussions" within the interview, but he's clearly more interested in inciting a mud slinging contest!

In any case, how can you rely on the competition to give you technical insight on another's machine? Does the phrase FUD mean anything to you? What makes you think that this guy will be honest about how he addresses the competition's console? There's no way in hell that'll happen, and you need to stop trying to defend this rubbish! Like Gunden said, don't rely on Pepsi to sing Coke's praises...so while he may be accurate, it's still not a fair analysis because he'll be hesitant to point out any positives about the PS3.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

It's technical comments.

I dont know what the heck this forum is for. We keep getting told it is for technical discussion only when most topics are OT.

Yet when a rare technical topic with insider information comes along, whether right or wrong, it gets locked because a certain side cant handle criticism of their machine, and that side happens to have great numbers, and throws their toys out of the pram so to speak.

Why dont people point out why he was wrong? As far as I can see no good counterargument has been proposed to the general idea that xenon has greater general purpose power and that makes it superior for games. It's certainly not a new idea, as MS have been hammering it for a long time. So there has been ample time for someone to shoot it down.

I'd love it if Sony would come out and tell us what is wrong with the 360, because in doing so they would give us more technical insight. I certainly dont think that hypothetical Sony pr should be locked.

Probably because you weren't around until recently. His techincal examination of the PS3 hardware is almost verbatim to the FUD MS/interested parties was spreading months ago... I believe in that major neslon thing... though I don't recall specfically if was there. Do a search. The reason most of us don't want discuss it is because we HAVE, ad nauseam. Developers and the more well educated on this forum have torn those "problems" with the PS3 to shreds.

 

[DeathKnight]

Look Ben... If I want an opinion on Pepsi, I don't go asking Coca-Cola about it alright?

Yeah, you'd just go ask Pepsi about Pepsi

 

[bRoNx]

Yeah, you'd just go ask Pepsi about Pepsi

Actually, I'd say you should ask a fair and unbiased, educated and well informed middleman about Pepsi. Not someone who works for Pepsi, and certainly not someone who works for the competition!

 

[Archgamer]

Just your usual PR stuff. If a Sony top developer was ask about his thoughts on the 360 hardware, he would downplay it as well.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Any developors have any experience with this:

We also have several tools, including DVD emulation and disc layout tools, that help game developers tune their load times long before the end of the project.

how effective are these disc layout tools for planning your project?

 

[Hardknock]

I don't mind this kind of thing.

The way I look at it, the two sides have some of the best, most trained minds in the world in this area generally, and their insights are interesting and may (that's a key word) have some value.

Are they biased? Well, duh. Their opinions should no more be taken as gospel than the "we're awesome, here's why!" opinions of the home team. Are we going to say we aren't interested in those too?

But, yeah, they do have the background to potentially know of what they speak, and you can get some visibility you might otherwise not get. Whether that is visibility of weaknesses in the other guy that the other guy certainly isn't going to volunteer for you, or weakness in the competitor's understanding of what the other guy is actually up to.

Great post.

 

[pakotlar]

Great post.

Exactly. I see the responses to the OP, such as Guden's, way more inflammatory than the OP itself. I read the interview given with Lee, and it seemed very interesting. There was a bit of PR speak, but nothing nearly as bad as Kutaragi-san and like. This guy is an engineer and game programmer, and he gives some godo reasons as to why X360 is better suited for game development than PS3. His points are valid; that doesn't that PS3 doesn't have certain other advantages, but comments like the 512MB ram being UMA rather than NUMA is on target. Sure, NUMA has advantages such as smaller latency penalty and (at least in case of PS3) better bandwidth throughput, but fact is PS3 will never be able to address more than 256MB for graphics data. And SPE's are basically DSP's, which is what he says. I don't see anything in there that should really be replied to as "Don't post this shit here" (Guden).

 

[Fafalada]

Why dont people point out why he was wrong?

a) It's all been done before, many times over.
b) He didn't point out anything new, and he isn't the first MS spokesman to point it out either.
c) His "technical statements" sound like your average TV shopping channel (admitedly, a bit less silly then Major/Mayor or what's his name).

 

[DeathKnight]

Actually, I'd say you should ask a fair and unbiased, educated and well informed middleman about Pepsi. Not someone who works for Pepsi, and certainly not someone who works for the competition!

Clearly you didn't get the humor. Jab. at. Guden.

 

[NRP]

To be fair to Guden, I think he was commenting on the posting of IGN's inflammatory portrayal of the Ars interview. It does seem like the OP is just trying to stir up shit.

I suggest that anyone who is offended by what the MS guy said should go read the Ars interview directly and avoid the 2nd and 3rd hand bias.

Personally, I don't think he slammed PS3 at all. He merely said he thought the 360 was a better solution for game development. Not surprising at all considering his employer.