Would a cartridge based console take away the need for a harddrive?

[DeadlyNinja]

This is just hypothetical. What if next generation, carts pricing rivals discs and offer tons of storage. Would a cart based console offer any other advantages? I'm kind of sick of the idea of installing games onto a console, watching the damn thing load, or have to worry about memory cards/storage. Would carts eliminate the need for all the hassle? I guess a harddrive would still be needed for DLC, but that's another issue.

 

[dubyateeeff]

This is just hypothetical. What if next generation, carts pricing rivals discs and offer tons of storage. Would a cart based console offer any other advantages? I'm kind of sick of the idea of installing games onto a console, watching the damn thing load, or have to worry about memory cards/storage. Would carts eliminate the need for all the hassle? I guess a harddrive would still be needed for DLC, but that's another issue.

Your question should've been what could hypothetically happen for next-gen that would eliminate the need for installations. Anyways:

* You could have storage on the cartridge for saves and DLC.
* But the disc drives could also be faster than harddrives next-gen.
* And everything could be DLC installing directly to the harddrive without you noticing.
* All games could be delivered on quadruple sided BR-discs (?!), with the data split in a way that 4 lasers would read the data from 4 different layers at the same time increasing the read speed. And to eliminate any loading all games would be delivered on 4 of those disc which would be inserted into a 4 different drives.

 

[homerdog]

This might interest you: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=48244

 

[Rangers]

Your question should've been what could hypothetically happen for next-gen that would eliminate the need for installations. Anyways:

* You could have storage on the cartridge for saves and DLC.
* But the disc drives could also be faster than harddrives next-gen.
* And everything could be DLC installing directly to the harddrive without you noticing.
* All games could be delivered on quadruple sided BR-discs (?!), with the data split in a way that 4 lasers would read the data from 4 different layers at the same time increasing the read speed. And to eliminate any loading all games would be delivered on 4 of those disc which would be inserted into a 4 different drives.

Uhhh...

Anyways, the main purpose of a HDD is a storage reservoir for download content, far moreso than for loading (Only PS3 uses HDD for mandatory streaming this gen, and then only occasionally, and thats mostly because of an early blu ray drive). So..you'd still need some kind of storage for that, be it HDD or solid state.

 

[Nano]

If the price was really as cheap as optical storage, then theoretically yes in many ways. However, if we're to consider that flash memory prices could be just as proportional, we could well have TBs of memory stored within the console offering fast read/write speeds and of course lots of storage capacity!

 

[obonicus]

If you're counting patches as part of DLC, then probably not?

 

[3dilettante]

A solid state cartridge capable of replacing a hard drive is basically an SSD hard drive, with the commensurate hardware complexity and cost with the additional wrinkle that it will be much more heavily engineered to handle being detachable and exposed to external factors.

A game with 32 GB of data will cost what a 32 GB SSD hard disk will cost + 60 dollars+ some unknown amount to compensate for the massively more expensive media and other medium headaches.

You could always try to hack the cart and get yourself a 60 dollar top of the line hard drive, if this isn't the case.

 

[Megadrive1988]

While cartridges are not necessarily the answer, I do hope solid-state removable storage media, of some sort, replaces optical disc media and that solid-state mass storage of some kind replace hard drives.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Would flash memory really be that expensive for a game? 8gb would be more than enough for most games and it costs about 12 euro. Actual production costs would be alot lower. Ofcourse it would still be alot more than the 25c or so you pay for a dvd (I assume BR isnt alot more expensive). I think there defenitly is a future for this. Maybe not in consoles right away but handhelds would be a great place. UMD was a flop so if there ever is a psp2 I think flash memory would be the way to go. No more need for a expensive disk drive that is large, breaks relative easy and uses alot of energy. Maybe your game will become 1 euro more expensive but I think in this case the extra costs defenitly are worth it probably. Ofcourse Nintendo has always been doing this.

But yes given its probably just a matter of time for large size flash media to go down in price I dont see why we wont see that used in consoles in the end.

 

[Rurouni]

The time that 8GB flash memory become affordable as a medium for game, probably most game need more space than that. The code itself might not need a large space, but the audio and especially the graphics definitely will grow. Smaller games would probably be distributed digitally and larger game would use the most affordable medium that fits, which I think wouldn't be flash memory.

But since the question on the original poster is a hypothetical question that questioning if cart and disc priced the same (and probably have the same capacity), would a cart offer an advantage over disc, then the answer is yes. The superior speed (especially random reads), the less power needed to run it, the less complex hardware, durability... basically disc have no advantage. But then again, it's hypothetical and very unlikely to happen.. and if that does happen, there wouldn't be any need for disc so it would be stupid for the console manufacturer to even consider using disc as their medium for games.

As for the other question whether it will take away the need for a hard drive.. in terms of using it as some sort of cache/install it won't need it. Then again, if some solid state solution is as cheap as disc based, then it would surely be cheaper than a hard drive, so instead a hard drive, they probably include a solid state internal storage for dlc stuff, patch, adding functionality and probably for future proofing in case the cart reach their max capacity limit.

PS:
the hard drive mentioned is magnetic based hdd like the one we use today
the disc is optical disc.
cart, flash and solid state is transistor/chip based storage.

 

[Richard]

The time that 8GB flash memory become affordable as a medium for game, probably most game need more space than that. The code itself might not need a large space, but the audio and especially the graphics definitely will grow. Smaller games would probably be distributed digitally and larger game would use the most affordable medium that fits, which I think wouldn't be flash memory.

Note that while the above might be true, you have to look at a curve or trend in flash prices versus storage requirements to get an accurate picture.

I agree with your subsequent points about flash carts versus discs and I'd like to add a few more. An aspect to bear in mind are the hidden costs of DVD/BR or perhaps the hidden benefits of flash aside from the more obvious RW benefit: some of these are functional while others are financial. With flash you get uniform read-speed (and usually higher than disc media though I'm not all too intimate with BR speeds) so developers won't need to spend time optimising the physical location of assets and streaming parameters to take advantage of angular velocity - based media. Obviously, anything that saves development time will also save money or raise quality.

Likewise, flash-based (as in USB-pen like) media would allow much smaller game cases. Whereas today the size of the case is constrained by the size of the disk (120mm), moving to a USB-pen sized media would mean the new constraint would probably be the size of the manual. Instead of today's portrait oriented manuals we could see a return to landscape-oriented like the old NES game manuals. Smaller cases means less shelf space, less storage needed to maintain stock, more efficient transportation, etc. I'd be willing to bet that all of these savings would bring the total cost of media production/logistics very close to current disc-based games.

And then there's related but external cost savings that you have to factor like no longer requiring such a large/heavy/power-hungry component as an optical disc reader unless you also want your console to serve as a (legacy) home theater. I say legacy because unlike games, movies can be easily streamed along with monolithic digital distribution so they can benefit a lot more readily from that. Please note this doesn't necessarily mean mass-adoption of movie DD will occur sooner than games DD - there are other, social rather than tecnical, considerations that are more influential in bringing about this change.

Anyway, removing the optical disc at least for some console models has obvious benefits like lower price, smaller case, lower power consumption, lower noise, or a combination of these.

Having said all that, there's a massive investment made in disc reproduction plants so I personally don't believe we'll see this in the next gen (aiming for 2012). There may be an hybrid disc/DD model but going straight to flash would be a suprise for me; a welcome one.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Thats why I said something like a psp2 will probably use it first as it has direct benefits and cost wont be too high as it wont need very big memcards.

I think the investment made in optical media, with maybe the exeption of sony because of BR, isnt a very big deal. I dont think optical media will last. If the consumer had the option for his music most people would probably very fast switch from cd to a digital format. For movies its a bit different still because of filesizes but for example who really cares about blank optical media still? Most people use usb sticks, phones, mp3 player or small portable hdd's these days to give/take data from friends and family. Most electronics that need datastorage also seem to move to flash like memory so I think at some point flash memory will be as big of a mass production as optical media now.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Likewise, flash-based (as in USB-pen like) media would allow much smaller game cases. Whereas today the size of the case is constrained by the size of the disk (120mm), moving to a USB-pen sized media would mean the new constraint would probably be the size of the manual.

Pen size? I think next-gen storage should be Micro-SD sized, and cases should be the size of a postage stamp. B&M stores would benefit from incredible amounts of stock, and transport costs would become mitigated on the whole.

 

[Richard]

Pen size? I think next-gen storage should be Micro-SD sized, and cases should be the size of a postage stamp. B&M stores would benefit from incredible amounts of stock, and transport costs would become mitigated on the whole.

For clarification, over here "USB memory sticks" are called "pens" or "USB-pens". Sorry about that. :smile:

 

[Npl]

Would flash memory really be that expensive for a game? 8gb would be more than enough for most games and it costs about 12 euro. Actual production costs would be alot lower. Ofcourse it would still be alot more than the 25c or so you pay for a dvd (I assume BR isnt alot more expensive). I think there defenitly is a future for this. Maybe not in consoles right away but handhelds would be a great place. UMD was a flop so if there ever is a psp2 I think flash memory would be the way to go. No more need for a expensive disk drive that is large, breaks relative easy and uses alot of energy. Maybe your game will become 1 euro more expensive but I think in this case the extra costs defenitly are worth it probably. Ofcourse Nintendo has always been doing this.

But yes given its probably just a matter of time for large size flash media to go down in price I dont see why we wont see that used in consoles in the end.

As you also need to flash those 8GB, I think that adds a huge problem in producing 100.000s of Copies in a short amount of time. Gamesales flatten sharply after introduction, so either you run out of stock fast - gradually shipping new copies or you need to wait till you have the stocks to staisfy the initial demand. (Third option is to flash tons in parallel - but thats again a productioncost).
You cant react nearly as fast tp the market-demand as with disc spit out in seconds.

 

[MfA]

Meh, dunno ... lets say you go for 100 MB/s transfer rate, that's 80 seconds programming ... say you use a machine which programs a cartridge with 100 flash devices at a time you'd already have a throughput far in excess of a DVD molding line ... and I'm pretty sure that flash programmer would be cheaper to build than a single molding line.

The cost of the medium is the problem.

 

[RudeCurve]

Nintendo DS games are very small but the case is still pretty big...CD jewel box size.

 

[Rurouni]

Pen size? I think next-gen storage should be Micro-SD sized, and cases should be the size of a postage stamp. B&M stores would benefit from incredible amounts of stock, and transport costs would become mitigated on the whole.

I don't think Micro-SD size is better... I think it should at least the size of regular SD. Micro-SD size is nice for a very small device that need upgradable storage, but handling that tiny thing is a bit of nightmare. If you drop it, you can easily lose it. Since very small device usually use it as a local storage, you usually just plug it and never touch it again. But in a case of console/handheld, you need to constantly plug-unplug it and that could be a potential problem.

And another problem with Micro-SD size would be labeling. How to put a label on those small thing? And SD size wouldn't do much help either... I think it would need either regular Memory Stick size or CF size for a decent labeling.

But probably by the time solid state become affordable, we would have bionic eye implant (or some futuristic eye wear) to track the RFID on the Micro-SD and read the description of the game directly.. or probably this all thing useless since probably future handheld console would use online only method for distributing games/apps (think iPhone) and regular console will use quantum thingy to instant transport large amount of content

 

[Brad Grenz]

Nintendo DS games are very small but the case is still pretty big...CD jewel box size.

You don't want the packaging to be too small or it will make them really easy to steal.

Really, the fact is for home consoles flash won't be able to be competitive with optical any time soon. I know 12 Euros seems cheap for 8GB of flash memory, but that's compared to half a Euro for a 50GB BR disc. By the time the next gen launches BR drives will be faster and support discs with more layers (up to 200GB). The math is just not gonna add up in Flash's favor for a long time. By the time it does it's doubtful we'll still be buying physical copies of games, so it's a non starter.

Which brings me to portables. Yeah, optical is a poor choice and doubtful to be used in the next PSP or Nintendo handheld. But when they come out they'll just have built in and expandable flash storage and all games will be sold as downloads ala PSN and the iPhone App store. So you're unlike to see flash cart games there either. Sony has already begun transitioning to this distribution model for the PSP.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Nintendo already uses some kind of flash. I dont think we will see online only distribution anytime soon. Besides the problem of everyone must have a fast unlimited internetconnection, which would already be a problem for most people in Belgium for example you also cant deny the power of a store. The more vivid gamer probably doesnt mind going online to buy his game but the kind of people who buy things like wii fit or braintraining see something on tv and they just want to walk into to store and but the thing they saw. Also, and I dont know if this is really true but I once read that major store chains arnt too happy if you go online only because they dont make much money on selling the console but on selling the games. If somebody decides to stop offering games in the store I heard they might just not sell the console as it wont make them any money.