Windows 7 on its way :|
- Thread starter mito
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Ahh i see now, software's level of quality its totally dependent on my level of experience
I thought you were a friend kiler why didnt you tell me earlier, i bet you just wanted to sit back and laugh when i complained about a bug while knowing all the time that it was my fault
ps: out of interest which hello world and what bugs does it have ?
and do you think its possible to fix them ?
I thought you were a friend kiler why didnt you tell me earlier, i bet you just wanted to sit back and laugh when i complained about a bug while knowing all the time that it was my fault
ps: out of interest which hello world and what bugs does it have ?
and do you think its possible to fix them ?
And then it would be released in ~2018, being extremely outdated and lots of features expected to be present in a modern OS (MacOS, LinuX) missing. At least they won't have $11 billion to use for their next release...
If you owned a company that made a product and you had a choice between your product being late and your product having faults
you'd obviously release it late you would'nt dream of releasing a faulty product
edit found a quote on how much it cost ms to develop vista and it was less than 3 months income
you'd obviously release it late you would'nt dream of releasing a faulty product
edit found a quote on how much it cost ms to develop vista and it was less than 3 months income
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If the product was faulty for a small percentage of the customers and I knew that by the time I had it all rewritten to fix it my competitor had released something superior, then surely I would release it and save my company. If I didn't I would properly have to start over increasing the features to sell the product, since a more advance product had already hit the marked.
You obviously don't hold a business degree, and you obviously have never been in the business of developing any product for public sale.
How about we apply your thought process to GPU's: every video card ever created had bugs in it at some level -- both software and hardware. If they waited until there were absolutely positively no bugs, then they'd be years late, and would still be at the mercy of the companies creating the PCB's to actually use the GPU's, the memory chips on the PCB's, and finally all the manufacturers of the resistors, capacitors, transistors and diodes mounted to the PCB.
How about we apply your thought process to CPU's: every consumer CPU ever created had bugs in it at some level. If they waited until there were absolutely positively no bugs, they too would be years late, and would still be at the mercy of the companies building system boards, chipsets, memory manufacturers, add-in card manufacturers, PSU manufacturers, and the manufacturers of all the resistors, capacitors, transistors and diodes mounted to all of those parts.
How about we apply your thought process to an operating system: every consumer OS ever created had bugs in it at some level. If they waited until there were absolutely no bugs, they would be bordering on decades late, and would still be at the mercy of EVERYONE I just mentioned above, plus every software developer on the planet who was building software that runs on their OS.
It's easy for you to sit here and do the arm-chair critic thing, saying that you'd specifically blame the application for the bug if it was indeed the applications' fault. So tell me how you are capable of seeing the exact issue and automatically knowing that (x) bug is a problem with the OS versus a bad driver, bad piece of hardware, bad application, or some other external influence?
It depends on the bug as to whether you can make such a determination, but unless it's something glaringly obvious, you can't always know where the fault truly lies. You blast Microsoft for building a "buggy" OS, where is your blasting of driver creators, hardware manufacturers and application developers? They likely deserve it just as much...
I know how software development works, and I cannot really blame MS. In general, their products are very slick, and they do work for the vast majority. That's quite an accomplishment.
But those products tend to grate my nerves after a while. Sure, I'm definitely not typical, I specialize in doing the difficult stuff, which also means I encounter many of the bad parts: from outright bugs to it simply being much harder to automate something than manually clicking and configuring everything time and again.
Features abound, while the simple things you take for granted with just about any other OS are severely lacking. Lots of forests and not enough distinct, grown trees.
Marketing, a sleek product and lots of support like mandatory courses works well for establishing a monopoly, but that doesn't mean it works elegantly in any way. From a technical POV.
But those products tend to grate my nerves after a while. Sure, I'm definitely not typical, I specialize in doing the difficult stuff, which also means I encounter many of the bad parts: from outright bugs to it simply being much harder to automate something than manually clicking and configuring everything time and again.
Features abound, while the simple things you take for granted with just about any other OS are severely lacking. Lots of forests and not enough distinct, grown trees.
Marketing, a sleek product and lots of support like mandatory courses works well for establishing a monopoly, but that doesn't mean it works elegantly in any way. From a technical POV.
Nonsense.
I bet if you gave me a copy of that program I could probably find a half-a-dozen bugs within 30 minutes of running it.
Did you test it with non-english characters? Did you test it on a High-DPI display? Did you try Right-To-Left languages? Do you work in 640x480? 800x600? 256 colors? 32-bit? Do you render properly in each of the themes on XP and Vista? If you use Vista glass features, what happens when glass is diabled? Do you still render everything correctly? Do you use the right font to render your dialogs (it's Tahoma on 2000/XP, and Segoe UI on Vista)
Do you honor the user's regional settings correctly? Do you display the date/time in the right format? What about currency? Numbers?
What about accessibility -- did you test it with a screen reader? What about Tablet PC? Does the input panel work with all the dialog controls? Speech recognition? Touch input? Do you honor the high contrast color scheme (for people with bad vision)?
Did you test it running as a non-admin user? What about with UAC enabled? Disabled? What happens if you try to run two copies at the same time? What happens if two different users are logged into the same machine and are trying to run it at the same time? What happens when you get a sharing violation? What happens when you get an access denied?
Did you test it under stress? Under low memory conditions? Are you sure you won't corrupt data if you run out of memory? Or window handles. Or file handles.
What happens if the power goes out halfway through your save operation? What happens if the network goes out? What happens if the disk runs out of space, or the file system starts to return errors? Do you have an auto-recovery system?
How well do you handle a corrupted or malicious data file? Do you checksum things to detect corruption? Or do you just crash?
Did you test your installer running as a regular user? What happens if you run your installer twice? Does your uninstaller remove everything it installed? What happens if you run out of disk space halfway through your installer? What happens if the download package is corrupted? Can you detect corrupted program files? What if "C:\Program Files" doesn't exist? What if program files is actually in "D:\Programs"?
Do you save your files in the user's profile directory? What if the user's profile directory is on another drive? What if the user's profile directory points to a network share?
The list goes on and on and on and on.
Just because your users have never run into bugs, doesn't mean bugs don't exist in your program -- and the more users you have and the more complicated your program, the more likely it is someone out there will run into a particular bug that you thought wasn't important, didn't think of, or thought was impossible.
The point is that the real world is complicated and bug free software is extremely difficult to write.
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So you admit that it isnt impossible just exremely difficult and thats my point
as for my software i used it because its the best example i know, maybe it does have bugs all i know is no ones ever found one
and as for those tests i actually did test a lot of those the xp things i didnt test why ?
xp didnt exist at the time i cant test a program on a non existant o/s
Anything is possible given enough time and resources. Whether it is practical, is something that any seasoned professional developer knows is not true.
To be fair, I was just giving examples of things you have to test for today.
You should really look up what "diminishing returns" stands for. Then stuff like TQM, QA, the cost of quality etc. Then eventually, you'll get a nice graph that illustrates that after a point, the costs of improving quality are too great compared to the added value/quality they provide-you know, this economics stuff, it likes optimal a lot, but optimal is seldom a min or a max. Then think about it in the context of your argument. What is possible isn't always what is useful/meaningful. It is also possible to nail ones testicles to a wall-hard,extremely difficult, but possible-is that really useful?Does it add anything to the quality of life?Waiting ad infinitum ad nauseum in order to crush every possible bug in behemothic code is just as useless.
i know about diminishing returns
but i dont think it should apply to products
you should not sell goods with faults, no ifs, no buts, its wrong
for example if you were to pay me to write you a program and i agreed to it, it would work( yes there would be some conditions, minimum system requirements ect) but it would work,
all of the features would work, it would not have faults. not crash ect. If it did you would get a refund, and if that meant i worked for a year for nothing then so be it. I cant expect you to pay for a a program that doesnt work properly ,And no way in hell would i try and sell you it knowing it had faults thats just wrong..
but i dont think it should apply to products
you should not sell goods with faults, no ifs, no buts, its wrong
for example if you were to pay me to write you a program and i agreed to it, it would work( yes there would be some conditions, minimum system requirements ect) but it would work,
all of the features would work, it would not have faults. not crash ect. If it did you would get a refund, and if that meant i worked for a year for nothing then so be it. I cant expect you to pay for a a program that doesnt work properly ,And no way in hell would i try and sell you it knowing it had faults thats just wrong..
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What if you didn't know? What if you worked for 10 years building THE PERFECT product, had concluded that it worked perfectly, and you sent out along with your 100% money-back guarantee?
And then someone in China finds that your application doesn't work with right-to-left text orientation. And you didn't say they couldn't use it in that config.
Your application now has a bug; every single person you sold that app too is now 100% entitled to a refund. Not only are you completely out of all the money you may have gained from your software, you're also completely out of 10 years of your life. How do you intend to recover from that situation? Hell, how did you pay for 10 years of development and the hardware to test it on? And now that you just got done giving every single purchaser their money back, how are you going to continue paying to live to fix the problem so you can re-sell your last decades' worth of life work?
THAT is the reality of the situation you're trying to describe -- and that would never EVER work in business. Nobody is trying to screw you into buying a faulty product, but even the computer you're using right now to type your responses has flaws in it. Anything that is created by a human does have flaws, it doesn't matter who you are or what you use.
The house you own / rent? It has flaws in the studs, in the drywall, even in the electrical components. The car that you drive / ride in to work? It has flaws in the tires, shocks, springs, computer, fuel injectors, fuel rail, even the cylinders. It even has flaws in the fabric you SIT ON. Speaking of fabric -- the clothes that you are wearing RIGHT NOW? They too have flaws.
Do those flaws detract from the usefulness of all those products? Probably not. Or if they do, it's in such a minor way that it does not invalidate your decision to purchase that product.
That is the TRUE reality of the world we live in; feel free to participate in it if you like.
"what if you didnt know"
Unlike other software companies I stand by my product and i guarantee it to do whatever its supposed to do
If you pay me to write you a program to do A, B + C then my program will do A, B + C guaranteed or your money back
"I didnt know" is not a defence and if it means i take a financial hit then i have no choice but to take it the only other option would be to rip off my customers are you saying thats preferable ?
Unlike other software companies I stand by my product and i guarantee it to do whatever its supposed to do
If you pay me to write you a program to do A, B + C then my program will do A, B + C guaranteed or your money back
"I didnt know" is not a defence and if it means i take a financial hit then i have no choice but to take it
the only other option would be to rip off my customers are you saying thats preferable ?Similar threads
