Windows 7 on its way :|

Nothing on that list is very current and therefore the problem, also Wine is very hit and miss (and the pay for game spin off is well.. there are a large number of bad support stories).

EDIT: Sazer... indeed. I could never go back to the traditional style of word processors after using Office 2007. It is so much better and easier to use for me, has greatly helped my work flow when using a word processor or the various other programs that feature the new interface.
 
You would not be saying such if you played games. The main reason (that and Open Office sucks and the other free ones as well... sorry) I'm not using Ubuntu right now.

There are a few things OpenOffice currently does that Office 2003 or 2007 do not do. A main one is an extremely wide range of document support without having to purchase 20 other applications to integrate into Office 2007. They just...open.
 
There are a few things OpenOffice currently does that Office 2003 or 2007 do not do. A main one is an extremely wide range of document support without having to purchase 20 other applications to integrate into Office 2007. They just...open.

None of the features I care about apparently, also the wide range of document support is basically useless for one very large reason: Nearly everyone uses Word.
 
There are a few things OpenOffice currently does that Office 2003 or 2007 do not do. A main one is an extremely wide range of document support without having to purchase 20 other applications to integrate into Office 2007. They just...open.

Office 2007 does a wide range of things that OpenOffice cannot do -- howabout configuration by group policy? Howabout integrated updates via our already-in-place Windows Update Services system?

OpenOffice is good stuff for the home user who doesn't want to spend the money, no argument. But for a true office environment, there are things in MS Office that OpenOffice cannot replace.
 
Why is this suprising people?

Ever since the previews early last year I've thought of Vista as a ME-type of OS, and I didnt think it would last 18 months. Its far to much like XP but with worse drivers - exactly like 98>ME.

I have to say, my suspicions we pretty much confirmed when they said that WinFS wasnt going to be in Vista, but would possibly be in an incremental upgrade. Vista (in current form) isn't around to stay.
 
XP has only had such a long life because Vista was so late. MS is now determined to get back onto it's normal schedule of another OS every three or so years so they can continue to make money from new releases, and screw more cash from people via a subscription model. It's not that Vista's life will be particularly short, it's just that it's lifespan will be back to what MS would rather the lifespan of their OSes are.
 
Why is this suprising people?

Ever since the previews early last year I've thought of Vista as a ME-type of OS, and I didnt think it would last 18 months. Its far to much like XP but with worse drivers - exactly like 98>ME.

I have to say, my suspicions we pretty much confirmed when they said that WinFS wasnt going to be in Vista, but would possibly be in an incremental upgrade. Vista (in current form) isn't around to stay.

I really don't understand how supposedly educated people can even make such a statement.

98 > ME:
Same kernel
Same memory management
Same driver model
Same file system
Same hardware support
Same network stack
Same IO structure

NT5.x -> Vista
Different kernel
Different memory management
Different driver model
Different file system (no, it's not WinFS, but it IS a different NTFS)
Different hardware support
Different network stack
Different IO structure

All of these things in Vista are better, and not arguably so. There are so many things that Vista fixes from NT5 that it's ridiculous to sit here and cry about it being anything like ME.

If all you're capable of is spewing hate, go elsewhere. If you want to make a VALID POINT about the Vista OS's shortcomings, get your damned story straight.
 
I think you've got me wrong. I personally like Vista, I only use it for my "work" and watching movies, so I haven't had any of the problems people have from games. I'm quite happy with it, I like the Bling and while it uses more resources, it works faster than XP in some things.

I'm looking at it from an over arcing view though. From the average Joe position. Not that much has changed "for the user", the driver state is very poor, and games in the main run slower. For the average Joe user, Vista doesnt have much over XP, certainly not enough to warrant extra money. My view is also held up by all the system builders RETURNING to XP, and Inq's (yeah yeah) report saying that Vista boosts XP sales.

Whatever you thought of my post, it's still a fact that to 95% of users, Vista isn't enough of an upgrade to warrant more spending, so MS isn't making as much money as they hoped, and is therefore as likely as they were with ME to push a new OS, or a radically improved Vista within the next 18 months. Easily.
 
Well, when you compare any new OS to "ME" (just like comparing any new video card to the FX / NV30) then it only brings along the connotation of a completely screwed up and hopelessly inept product.

If you wanted to compare Vista to a previous desktop OS change, it would likely be 9x to NT5. Drivers were broken, performance was generally down, and mostly the whole OS and a ton of it's features were labelled as "bloat" by those who were so used to Win95/98.

The reality was quite the opposite as newer machines came in. In reality, the next OS is coming soon not because MS wants Vista out of their inventory, but because they want to get back to (what they consider) a regular release schedule. I mean, look at history: Win3.0 -> Win3.1 -> Win95 -> Win98 -> Win2K / WinME -> WinXP were all two or three years apart at most. The XP->Vista transistion was not a normal timeframe in terms of their prior history, and that's where they want to get back.

As for Vista somehow selling more XP licenses? I don't see how -- if a person was going to buy a computer, they were going to buy a computer. Having the choice is nice, isn't it? Or would you rather NOT have the choice?

And as for 95% of the population not needing Vista? Welp, the don't "need" XP in the same vein. 95% of the population could still happily be chugging along on Win95 with that kind of logic. Surf the web? Check. Listen to music? Check. Share files? Check. Watch YouTube? Check. Play games? Well, with Win98 you had DX9 support, and quite a few people consider DX10 to be generally worthless and backwards-emulatable, so check.

Does any of that crap actually make sense in the real world?

No.
 
...
And as for 95% of the population not needing Vista? Welp, the don't "need" XP in the same vein. 95% of the population could still happily be chugging along on Win95 with that kind of logic. Surf the web? Check. Listen to music? Check. Share files? Check. Watch YouTube? Check. Play games? Well, with Win98 you had DX9 support,...

Does any of that crap actually make sense in the real world?

No.
XP Security, 98 is swisscheese, And "real world" and MS are not in the same reality. They dont have to be.
 
XP Security, 98 is swisscheese, And "real world" and MS are not in the same reality. They dont have to be.
There is a reason why people pay for Windows rather than install a free OS; you know this right?

Hate them all you like, but Microsoft does indeed make products (to include OSes) that meet both real user and real business needs. If *nix or Apple could say the same, they'd be on top instead.
 
First off:

The reality was quite the opposite as newer machines came in. In reality, the next OS is coming soon not because MS wants Vista out of their inventory, but because they want to get back to (what they consider) a regular release schedule. I mean, look at history: Win3.0 -> Win3.1 -> Win95 -> Win98 -> Win2K / WinME -> WinXP were all two or three years apart at most. The XP->Vista transistion was not a normal timeframe in terms of their prior history, and that's where they want to get back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Me

"Windows Millennium Edition ... released on September 14, 2000 ... it was soon replaced by Windows XP, which was launched on October 25, 2001."

13 months, not even the 18 months I had originally given it credit for. Like Vista, ME had poor drivers / broken games and used roughly the same resources as XP, which looked and acted loads better than ME. You can stand there with your fingers in your ears all you want, but Vista in one form or another i coming up to being out for nearly a year, and drivers are still attrocious. The main reason for upgrading to Vista for lots of people was DX10, which we've heard is pretty likely to be back ported to XP now. The 64bit version is as broken as the 32bit version, unlike XP where even though the 64bit version is dead, the 32bit system is standing strong.

XP stood out over 98, and ME, and Win2k for home users like a beacon. It brought 32bit, NTFS, structured drivers etc. Vista in no way does the same. Again, I personally like it, but theres no way its making its way on to my home PC. I don't want : crappy drivers, increased load for nothing, no new file system, DX10 so far is pointless, DRM.

I agree with you on one point. MS makes a decent solid OS. Its called XP. Unless MS start patching Vista like crazy, and pull a rabbit out their asses, I will not be suprised if Vista is a memory come this time next year - 18 months in the home user market, and well before the 3 yr turn around that MS "want to get back to".
 
13 months, not even the 18 months I had originally given it credit for. Like Vista, ME had poor drivers / broken games and used roughly the same resources as XP, which looked and acted loads better than ME.
What are you talking about? ME was built on the Win9x kernel; there were no broken drivers -- Win9x drivers worked the exact same way they always had. Second, comparing WinME to WinXP is a complete and utter logical fallacy; the predecessor to XP was Windows 2000. Want to place your wager? Do a version check on Win2000 versus Windows XP, and you'll find only a minor revision bump (literally, minor revision is the first decimal place -- 5.0.2195 vs XP at 5.1.2600)

You can stand there with your fingers in your ears all you want, but Vista in one form or another i coming up to being out for nearly a year, and drivers are still attrocious.
Which is why the comparison to Win9x to Win2K is the more appropriate comparison. Or did you forget -- Win2K and WinXP drivers are the exact same... In fact, if you also forgot, so are Win2K3 drivers too. XP "drivers" were no such thing, they were carry over from the previous WinNT 5.x operating system.

The main reason for upgrading to Vista for lots of people was DX10, which we've heard is pretty likely to be back ported to XP now.
Really, and you have factual backing to base that claim? You can make up reasons all the time, but the big reason people are moving to Vista is because it's the current OS. Do you think John Doe who goes to buy a computer at Best Buy really cares about DX10? Maybe his son does, but his son isn't the one making the purchase. And secondly, wherever you heard DX10 is being "ported" to XP also had it wrong. Period. It's been debated more than a few times even on this forum, and the only people buying the story are those who have nothing but to sell but Vista fear and have their head planted firmly in the sand or some other unmentionable bodily orifice.

The 64bit version is as broken as the 32bit version, unlike XP where even though the 64bit version is dead, the 32bit system is standing strong.
The 32-bit version is broken? In fact, the 64-bit version is broken? Care to link us to some facts on this basis? Last I checked, the OS is 100% solid...

XP stood out over 98, and ME, and Win2k for home users like a beacon. It brought 32bit, NTFS, structured drivers etc. Vista in no way does the same. Again, I personally like it, but theres no way its making its way on to my home PC. I don't want : crappy drivers, increased load for nothing, no new file system, DX10 so far is pointless, DRM.
Everyone brings up increased resources; are you one of those uneducated types who bases your mindless opinion on what the Taskmanager is telling you? Because here's a newsflash -- it was lying in XP, and it's quite provable. And then everyone brings up DRM -- tell me this, where is the factual backing for all this DRM hype? Every time someone posts a link to the "facts" behind the DRM checking in Vista, it's a FUD website making up baseless claims about some technology they don't understand and how the "evil empire" is watching your every move and will shut your computer off and remove your software. Guess what? It isn't happening, because they aren't doing it beacause IT DOESN"T EXIST.
 
I thought I'd go ahead and post again, because I keep finding things wrong with your post.

XP brought 32bit, NTFS and a driver structure that 98/ME and Win2K didn't? Oh wait, you meant to say Win2K did all of that, right? Because that's where it all came from.

Vista has been out for a year? Here's another newsflash, it debut for business in December at the earliest. What month is this? Oh that's right, it's JULY. If you were to right it down in numeric format, this would be the seventh month of the year.

You want to make a bigger stink about drivers? Howabout we point the finger at the people who are truly responsible... In your mind, is the OS manufacturer at fault if drivers aren't around? Perhaps, but now let's expand that: is the OS manufacturer at fault for no drivers, then they have A: the corner on basically the overwhelming majority of the market, and B: have provided a beta platform of their OS for more than two years before it's production release seven months ago?

Here's a quick hint: maybe it isn't all Microsoft's fault that drivers aren't exactly where you want them to be.

Here's another quick hint: if drivers aren't up to par, why would you expect game performance to be top-notch as well? Even more to your own point, even in the poor state of drivers that you so proudly renounce, games are doing very well under the Vista OS if it's all as bad as you say. Hell, if it only has nowhere to go but better, then game performance will follow right along.l

Here's another obvious point:
I don't want : crappy drivers, increased load for nothing, no new file system, DX10 so far is pointless, DRM.
So, why did you EVER make the transision from Win3.11? Because Win95 brought much-increased load, no "new" file system (in the sense that NTFS 5 and NTFS 6 are not "new"), games performed worse and it was all new drivers. You had the life of Riley man, Win3.11 was all that and a bowl of cheerios in your seeming opinion! Hell, it even had 32-bit capabilities (Win32 anyone? Howabout protected EMM386 mode, which was actually a command switch for starting the OS) and enhanced graphics capabilities (win-G, remember?) All stuffed into a nice, easy cheap 1mb memory footprint. Why the hell would anyone want the HUGE overload of 4mb of memory space?

There are a hundred things that Vista does far better than XP, and likely another100 things that Vista does that XP simply could never do. And you can sit here all day and say that "95% of the users will never need Vista's features", and you might be right -- but that same 95% of the users will also never need XP's features over 2000. It's likely that most of those users in the 95th-percentile wouldn't need features over what was available in Win95. Does that mean we should stop making operating systems?

So when the new OS comes out in '09 or '10, and Vista has been on the shelf for somewhere around three years, you can tell me then how well it has stood the test of time. I'm willing to wager a few bucks that it fares a whole lot better than basically every other OS before it. XP was a simple refab of Win2K technology, to include drivers, thread scheduling, IO handling and memory management. Thread scheduling needed to change, IO handling NEEDED to change; things in the NT5 operating system needed correcting for modern hardware and modern applications, and a simple "patch" isn't going to fix core problems with the OS. In the exact same way that DX10 cannot simply be "patched" onto an OS that doesn't support user-mode drivers, virtualization of non-tradtional processor resources and flat memory access to memory that isn't in the "main memory pool".

XP will live on in the back of our minds, just like there was a solid and devout crowd of people who swore they'd never move to XP from Win2000 (yes, they ARE out there, still). That doesn't make those people's stance any more logical or rational...
 
On the topic of new ms o/s' s it would be nice if ms actually finished there previous one before moving on to the next
 
sure Albuquerque, windows xp + vista have bugs ie: they arnt working properly

i dont know if youve ever done any programming but do you consider a program finished if it still contains bugs - i dont
 
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