Will ATi's R500 be ready for XBox2 in fall 2004?

[Megadrive1988]

Since XBox2 is ment to be based around a modified R500 core or R5xx core, do you think it is even possible R500 will be ready by then?

With R420 coming in the spring, I thought R500 had been pushed into 2005. then ATi might only have R450 ready by fall.

what do you think?

 

[Josiah]

the original launch date for R500 was (is?) fall 2004...if it's pushed back to 2005 it will probably be because of resources being moved to the Xbox2 design.

 

[V3]

R500 is based on the R400, isn't ?

And the R420 is from the R300/350 one.

So R400 has been in development for quite awhile now, I am pretty sure, they can get it ready by early next year, for start production soon after.

 

[Megadrive1988]

yeah the original release timetable for the original R500, as of 2002, was fall 2004 iirc. then the R400 got cancelled, the R420 replaced it, and instead of R400's fall/late 2003 release, R420 is coming spring 2004. Then what comes out from ATi in the fall of 2004 seems kinda 'ify' at the moment. will it be R500, or R450.

It will be interesting to see if MS can really pull off a late 2004 release. much depends on ATi, probably not so much IBM, since XB2's CPU most likely already exists.

 

[cthellis42]

I figure they may want to push R500 back to Q1 2005 to get a full two product cycles in, as well as factoring delays for other reasons. It certainly needs some lead-in time if it's to be used in an Xbox that wouldn't be priced through the roof. Hehe... I can't see any way MS would be using the full strength of R500 unless they were launching in 2007, though. Likely a modified mainstream of the RV5xx variety, designed towards IBM's processing strengths as opposed to TSMC's? Hmm... So many things to ponder. What fun! Hehe.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I disagree that XB2's R5xx variant will be a watered down R500 or RV500


I think it will be a beefed up version of R500 at the very least. much like NV2A was a beefed up version of NV20 (GeForce3)


hell, some people including myself, speculated that XB2 might use twin R500s or a duel-core R500 with twice the processing elements as a standard R500.

as unlikely as that is, i still think the XB2 would have some sort of souped up R500 variant, not a watered down version.


on the other hand, the above assumes a 2005 release.

if XB2 is indeed coming in 2004, then a scaled down version of the full R500 might be more likely. or even R420/R450

 

[Vince]

I figure they may want to push R500 back to Q1 2005 to get a full two product cycles in

Do you think they can last in the PC sector with the R3xx underlying the architecture for 2 generations? I seriosuly don't know and haven't heard anything, but I question if the R420 will be in the same ballpark with the new NV40 when it comes to advanced logic constructs like the PPP.

Although, I must confess I've pondered similar thoughts to Mega's about the R500 and 2H2004. Yet, I still don't think Microsoft has a snowballs chance in hell against STI... even now. Unless they fundimentally alter the game, which I wouldn't put it past them to do. It should be noted that with a possible T minus one year, we've heard zero talk of XBox2 dev kits, etc...

 

[Grall]

Beefed-up R500? Haha. You guys seriously believe you need a BEEFED-UP chip like R500 to run a next-gen console at TV resolutions? Even HDTV res? HOW many times more powerful is the R360 compared to NV2A? Now add to that imaginary Deadmeat-constant to come up with R500 speed...

Dual cores, you guys are NUTS. LOL, with dual core you need dual memory buses, so twice the RAM chips! M$ skimped on the RAM LAST time, the XB had even less mem b/w than standard GF3... No way.

I do not foresee R500 in 04, simply for the reason it most likely won't be needed. NV most likely wants two cycles out of NV40 minimum (big R&D investment, likely far from finished with NV50 etc), I don't see why ATi should be delayed to any great extent at all by the M$ deal. They went into this willingly, knowing the issues NV had when they dealt with M$. They would not have done this unless they thought they could pull it off.

I don't see why ATi couldn't use the exact same die as in the PC space, the northbridge (which they make also these days) is the one that needs to be modified if M$ goes with a non-Intel CPU, but that's a less complicated task. Also, wondering who will do the sound this time... HMMMMMM...

Only XB had really impressive sound hardware this time 'round, though devs don't seem to use all those custom DSPs for much other than the bog-standard surround fare. Can you even program them directly if you want to or are you forced to go through DX API calls only? If so, why is that? What would they have to lose by allowing programmers to bang the hardware directly?

PS2 is the console with the most interesting sound development really, with DTS being offered (in all too few titles really) when it isn't even a hardware feature of the sound chip. DPL2 support on the Cube's pretty good though, however I feel some titles implement it poorly.

Vince, regarding R420 vs NV40, don't forget 3dfx ran with the basic underlying Vooodoo architecture for friggin five years almost. I think the R300 still has mileage in it with that in mind... After all, we don't know in what ways it is being tuned and modified to turn into R420.

So what if it lacks a PPP, you need application support for that anyway, how long you think before we see that? Where are all the DX9 titles anyway, we had the original R300 in august of LAST year for chrissakes! By the time we "need" a PPP, ATi will have a card featuring one.

Likely we won't "need" a PPP until Longhorn makes it out in what, 06 now is it? Maybe even Longhorn won't have PPP support, though would be cool if it did. The graphics market is getting more fragmented all the time, it's only relatively recently titles have begun to *demand* hardware T&L for cryin out loud (DX7 level featureset), by the time they *demand* DX9 I guess another two years have to pass and they probably still won't require, and likely barely support, a PPP, or even shaders version 3. In the titles that do support these things there would be fallback alternatives for straight DX9 cards...

There's no hurry. PPP will be nothing but a checkbox feature and something for the demo makers at graphics chip companies to earn their keep with for a LONG time.

This isn't really a console discussion though, is it?


*G*

 

[cthellis42]

Being that neither R420 and NV40 seem to be huge steps up architecturally, I rather think both have more to fear from PowerVR's Series 5 than each other. (Volari doesn't seem like it will challenge, but PVR's quite the wild-card at the high end. ) Even if all the R3xx got was four more pipes (which seems to be the major advance expectation), PS/VS 3.0, and PCI-Express (and likely that's not all they'll get, since they can lean on notably smaller processes and low-K's starting to get application) they can probably ride out a full year on it. I imagine they're keeping their options open, though--if competition is too strong at the time they'll stick to schedule and get the R500 out in Q4 2004, but if they need/want the extra development time they can still lean on other things as well. (Push 2-slot cards, push up the heat, and put in more cooling. Go for better RAM. Whatever--you can always cut into your margins to bump the performance. Just look at the 5700. ) Considering they pushed back R400 to make the most of it with R500, I don't think they'll be notably behind at all. They may not come off as striking as with R3xx, and may even be sacrificing the lead somewhat, but they're hoping for a larger payout with R500.

Meanwhile, PVR remains the wild-card. Hehe...

Yet, I still don't think Microsoft has a snowballs chance in hell against STI... even now.

I'm not sure of that either, simply because the amount of force being brought to bear on CELL is huge. Even if it suffers from a similar ramp-up time as the PS2 due to its complexity, I have a feeling when it's tapped it will be tapped but GOOD! Hehe... Utterly impossible to predict the scales on these things, though, but I can at least see the PC-parts and follow the measured gains. CELL is very much the wild-card over HERE.

Unless they fundimentally alter the game, which I wouldn't put it past them to do.

Nor do I. They certainly shocked me with the recent announcement even though I thought it would be the best thing FOR them to do! But as I said in the other thread, unless they have pulled off the "secret project" of a LIFETIME, expectations of a 2004 launch are pure fantasy. (And I would expect Xbox fans to HATE a prospect like that, as it screws up the current generation and cripples their future.) The more time Microsoft gives towards development, the more I'll be expecting them to push out a great machine. Gives ATi more time to develop the proper form of R500 for the X2, gives IBM more time to create MS's desired processor, work out all the interconnects, and lean on their process advances, and gives Microsoft more time to flesh out their libraries and get developers properly aligned to their new system and offering quality launch titles, and in general just just makes the thing more powerful.

I'd rather see the Xbox appear sometime in 2006, as I think it would be in a quality state and not suffer from rushing. Heck, I'd LIKE it to come out at the end of 2006 or in 2007, as they could put even more innovation and power into it, but I highly doubt they'd give the PS3 that kind of lead. I hope Q4 2005 would be the ABSOLUTE earliers for X2, and would shift back if Sony does as well, rather than continue rushing to beat them to market. In fact, if the PS3 follows the usual trend, the US release will be ~6 months after the Japanese, so I think Microsoft would be best to aim at Q1-2 2006 regardless, and just cheer and keep chugging if PS3 slips. Launch side-by-side, and if they can the quality of launch titles and features, they can build headway in their stronghold and carry the momentum on elsewhere.

I imagine they WOULD love a Q4 2005 launch, but if they want a volume launch at that point, the unit will need to be in locked state and building nearly a year prior, which means barely over a year of development from now when they've JUST signed IBM...? Makes me nervous.

 

[chaphack]

PS2 is the console with the most interesting sound development really, with DTS being offered (in all too few titles really) when it isn't even a hardware feature of the sound chip.

You gotta be kidding!
Have you even eXperience Xbox games in DD5.1? Blows away whatever DPL2 PS2 can come up with! DTS support is terrible, but im sure XB nForce audiochip(vs 2X SPU + an overtaxed EE) would have no problem to handle that, no reason though since DD5.1 is good enough. Halo2 will use 48khz audiofx.

Dual cores, you guys are NUTS. LOL, with dual core you need dual memory buses, so twice the RAM chips! M$ skimped on the RAM LAST time, the XB had even less mem b/w than standard GF3... No way

IF the needs arise(as it PS3 is ultra powerful), MS could go exXxtreme. AFAIAC, MS didnt skimped much for the XB in relation to PS2(psst 4mb, total 40mb, no HDD, no NA, no 4 controller port psst).

 

[cthellis42]

I could possibly SEE extreme solutions from them... provided they expect to launch in late-2006+ or double the price. (Both? ) Dual-core ANYTHING will very much broaden the complexity of the unit and require lots of time and tweaking to use efficiently--hardware AND software--and offhand I can't see any particular chip they would get off better or cheaper by dual-coring lessers over optimizing a more powerful chip from a generation ahead.

I'm rather glad I glossed over Mega's response before. "Beefed up R500"? Maybe if they were challenging the PSX's price spectrum.

 

[Grall]

You gotta be kidding!

Um, why?

What, because it's a PS2 it can't be any good, or inventive? You always give Sony's hardware far too little credit.

Have you even eXperience Xbox games in DD5.1? Blows away whatever DPL2 PS2 can come up with!

Can't comment on DPL2 on PS2, but it works excellent in several Cube games, like Metroid Prime for example. The effect is extremely effective...

im sure XB nForce audiochip(vs 2X SPU + an overtaxed EE) would have no problem to handle that, no reason though since DD5.1 is good enough.

He he, always ready to put a negative spin on the competition... "Overtaxed"... LOL, Faf says DTS encoding is about 5% of VU0's power, man that'll certainly be the straw breaking the PS2 camel's back don't you think? Why do you take this so personally anyway? Why do you measure your own personal self-worth by the capabilities of your console hardware of choice? Don't you have more important things in your life? 'XB could do it if it wanted to but we don't need it so pbbblllllltttt!' REALLY, chap. You need to like, get a life or something.

Halo2 will use 48khz audiofx.

Will the level design be worth a damn this time 'round? That's something that's a bit more important to worry about rather what the audio samplerate will be don't you think? You're SUCH a f-boy it's quite unbelievable!

IF the needs arise(as it PS3 is ultra powerful), MS could go exXxtreme

Only in your wettest dreams pal. M$ can't keep running a console business that's constantly in the red. Stockholders won't stand up for it in the long run. Another five years of straight losses won't do it, they need to start to show profit during next generation or the XB project will go the way of the dodo.

Think of how much they've lost, and CONTINUE to lose. When they EARN their first dollar, that's one dollar LESS on the HUGE NEGATIVE PILE of money representing their losses so far.

MS didnt skimped much for the XB in relation to PS2 (blah blah)

There you go again with your penis measuring contests... Tiresome little f-boy. Discuss the topic instead rather than constantly trying to show the superiority of your hardware. You can strut around in a superior manner the day when XB sales are around 3x higher than its closest competitor, AND NOT ONE SECOND SOONER.


*G*

 

[cthellis42]

He's right, though... I mean it IS good for the consumer that Microsoft is willing to throw money at us. It's just that at some point it ends.

 

[chaphack]

Um, why?

What, because it's a PS2 it can't be any good, or inventive? You always give Sony's hardware far too little credit

" PS2 is the console with the most interesting sound development really "

Obviously you are giving it way too much credit.

Can't comment on DPL2 on PS2, but it works excellent in several Cube games, like Metroid Prime for example. The effect is extremely effective...

I take that as Mr Grall has no eXperience with DD5.1 on Xbox, not even DPL2 on PS2?

He he, always ready to put a negative spin on the competition... "Overtaxed"... LOL, Faf says DTS encoding is about 5% of VU0's power, man that'll certainly be the straw breaking the PS2 camel's back don't you think?

Do you not think Xbox can handle DTS in realtime?

Why do you take this so personally anyway? Why do you measure your own personal self-worth by the capabilities of your console hardware of choice? Don't you have more important things in your life? 'XB could do it if it wanted to but we don't need it so pbbblllllltttt!' REALLY, chap. You need to like, get a life or something.

heehe, i could search for old Mr Grall topics and posts. Dun be deleting them Mr Lifeboy! But nayyy...not worth my time.

Will the level design be worth a damn this time 'round? That's something that's a bit more important to worry about rather what the audio samplerate will be don't you think? You're SUCH a f-boy it's quite unbelievable!

~~yawn~~ you want examples of good audio, i gave you that Mr Lifeboy! Why compare gameplay now?

Only in your wettest dreams pal. M$ can't keep running a console business that's constantly in the red. Stockholders won't stand up for it in the long run. Another five years of straight losses won't do it, they need to start to show profit during next generation or the XB project will go the way of the dodo.

Think of how much they've lost, and CONTINUE to lose. When they EARN their first dollar, that's one dollar LESS on the HUGE NEGATIVE PILE of money representing their losses so far

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1066565587439

Last line thank you. ^_^

There you go again with your penis measuring contests... Tiresome little f-boy. Discuss the topic instead rather than constantly trying to show the superiority of your hardware.

There you go again. I could search old Grall posts...whats that quote...pot kettle black or something...
Of coz, we can already see something along that lines when Mr Lifeboy conveniently decided to compare Xbox with PC, rather than Xbox with PS2.

MICKROSOFT IZ a SkIMPY i TELL Ya!

 

[chaphack]

He's right, though... I mean it IS good for the consumer that Microsoft is willing to throw money at us. It's just that at some point it ends.

Exactly.

I dont see why those highly "Life-ly" peeps are so concerned about the making money or not. Fook them i say, give me powerful hardware and cheap software bundles thank you very much.

If it ends, it ends. Look for the next honey comb or something.

 

[London Geezer]

He's right, though... I mean it IS good for the consumer that Microsoft is willing to throw money at us. It's just that at some point it ends.

Exactly.

I dont see why those highly "Life-ly" peeps are so concerned about the making money or not. Fook them i say, give me powerful hardware and cheap software bundles thank you very much.

If it ends, it ends. Look for the next honey comb or something.

Chap, people can worry about how much money a company is losing for the fact that the company one day will stop production in order to stop losing money.
Having MS (and everyone else really) throwing millions at the market is a VERY VERY good thing for us gamers, however in the long run the company itself will want to stop production and exit the market, leaving fewer companies in the market and leaving the possibility for the remaining companies to become a monopoly. No need to remind you that a monopoly would be BAAAAAAAAD for the industry do i
only speaking from an economics point of view, the "my dick is bigger than yours" competition doesn't really interest me.

 

[chaphack]

I know about all those econmy chinkchank, but again, who cares? Why look so long into the uncertain financial future and why not enjoy the games and 3D. Who can predict if me-us be still playing games by then?

If MS XFLop exit the market, too bad for them. Not good enough boyz. If KK SCEI dies in face of competition, thats your problem with those crazy ideals. Same goes with Nintendo, your old ways failed you. If the industry crashes, hohoho, too bad, us 1-2 forumers cant do no shit to salvage anything.

Right now, we-aH! for MS and their added competition. we-AH for Xbox being a VERY competent system. we-Ah for the cuts and bundles and whatever. we-Ah for 3D graphics!

Xbox rocks! Buy it.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Chap, ever get the feeling you don't belong somewhere?
...there was a chance just a moment ago, hope you didn't miss it...

 

[London Geezer]

Chap, ever get the feeling you don't belong somewhere?
...there was a chance just a moment ago, hope you didn't miss it...

thanks, i thought i was the only one thinking "WTF is your point? WTF has that to do with what we're talking about?"

 

[chaphack]

Someone made an unjust/biased statement. I had to adjust that.