Microsoft replaced your defective system at their expense, everybody likes sticking it the man. People with defective phat Ps3 got a nice 120 dollar bill every time until they bought a slim.
Why isn't XB360 outselling PS3 in Europe? *spawn
- Thread starter TheChefO
- Start date
Microsoft replaced your defective system at their expense, everybody likes sticking it the man. People with defective phat Ps3 got a nice 120 dollar bill every time until they bought a slim.
I'm pretty sure you did not read this thread's title.
The idea that 360 was noisy because it's American (and American things are noisy) is absurd. It's noisy because whoever was responsible for the (thermal) design didn't know how to do it better. The idea that PS3, which was larger than 360, is more subtle is weird. The idea that piano-black console has less of a tech look than original 360 is also something I have difficulty understanding.
I didn't know American consumer electronics tend to break. Noted.
Ohh i did and so did you.. gratz to us!
The idea that the 360 is noisy and bad engineering tend to get hot and kill itself is an American thing is all imho of course,maybe i read to many US newspapers. I guess others would think Microsoft quality in reality. Design is and always be a hot topic, first of all, size doesn´t matter, looks does. The PS3 is sleak, the 360 is not. And i will tell my other Piano Black devices to go get a white paint job with a cheasy font and the biggest green power button in the world so they can look cool
Compared to the original Microsoft didn´t go for full retard on the 360, it´s as a i said, way more modern, but it still got that nerdy feeling to it´s look compared to the Wii and PS3. All imho of course.
It was that or a massive lawsuit and backlash of even greater proportions. Sony just played it by the electronic consumer book. And did not have anything like the RROD problems or we would have heard about it and have a lawsuit on the way.
That irrelevant reply sure threw the whole topic very nicely! I was talking about the past 20 years of MS gaining a reputation prior to getting into the console business. There was Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows XP, all giving ordinary PC users headaches and making them rue the day they ever came across Microsoft. Right or wrong, that's going to have an impact on the perception of a MS console, so it was always an uphill struggle to get people to trust MS in providing a seemless entertainment experience. Yes, I know of jokes from people expecting the XBox to BSOD... In NA, MS did more to win people over with XB1 and build on that with XB360.
If I'd used my superb slippers / hooker analogy I might have been upset.
Anyway, as a kind of sum up & own thoughts, I think the possible issues facing MS in Europe would be:
- American image (don't really see this myself)
- MS (M$) image
- Reliability / build quality / hadware badness and undesirability
- Poor localisation (compared to PS3)
- Better exclusives on PS3
- Pay for Xbox Live
- Really nice Bluray player on PS3
Have I missed anything, or added anything that seems stupid?
BTW: Today I save a 4GB Kinect bundle in the supermarket for £187, and a 250GB 360 for £155. Don't know if these are official price cuts but they do represent pretty good value bundles. Perhaps MS is responding to the pretty-damn-good value offered by the post price cut PS3?
Anyway, as a kind of sum up & own thoughts, I think the possible issues facing MS in Europe would be:
- American image (don't really see this myself)
- MS (M$) image
- Reliability / build quality / hadware badness and undesirability
- Poor localisation (compared to PS3)
- Better exclusives on PS3
- Pay for Xbox Live
- Really nice Bluray player on PS3
Have I missed anything, or added anything that seems stupid?
BTW: Today I save a 4GB Kinect bundle in the supermarket for £187, and a 250GB 360 for £155. Don't know if these are official price cuts but they do represent pretty good value bundles. Perhaps MS is responding to the pretty-damn-good value offered by the post price cut PS3?
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Mod edit : OT
MS isn't doing as well in Europe likely has more to do economic factors combined with the fact that PS2 was incredibly well loved there and that PC gaming in certain European countries (Germany especially) still dominates sales.
Someone earlier noted that in the US you could likely attribute much of the uptake for X360 to have come from former PC gamers who saw their beloved PC games move to consoles. COD 3 for example was a console exclusive after it gained it's popularity on the PC. Oblivion moved to PC. As PC franchises made the move to consoles so too did many former PC gamers.
Combine that with flawless voice chat that is ubiquitous and requires no "fiddling" (compared to having to fiddle with Teamspeak/Ventrilo/etc.) and no need to hassle with drivers, etc. and users in the US were primed to move to X360 en mass.
When you consider as well that the US PC gaming population was much larger than the PC gaming population in Europe, that can account for much of the large disparity. Especially when many European countries remain quite attached to their PC gaming experience, thus even less European PC gamers made the switch.
As to the economic position. While there are certainly some affluent European countries (UK, Germany, France) there are also some not so affluent European countries (Spain, Greece, etc.). Those with more money can afford to consider multiple console purchases. Whether that is PS3 + Wii, or X360 + Wii, or PS3 + X360, or all three. Hence, X360 uptake in the UK was good, Germany PC gamers stuck to PC while PS2 gamers likely went to PS3, and who know's what's up with the French.
However, if you are in a less affluent country and you have less buying power. You may only have a choice of 1 console. If you can only own one console are you likely to go with a follow up of the console you already love (PS2 -> PS3), go with a console that is cheaper with a new experience (Wii), or a newcomer with a bad or nonexistant reputation from the last cycle (X360). I'd argue people in those countries would likely favor going with the tried and true and stick with PS3 (once you can afford it) or buy a Wii. And that's what you see in countries like Spain and Greece.
The RROD issue would only discourage further those with limited buying potential from investing in an X360, especially before MS implemented their extended replacement policy.
Unlike the Japan environment, nationalism doesn't even come into play in Europe or the US (where Japanese products often have or had a better reputation than their US counterparts).
Regards,
SB
MS isn't doing as well in Europe likely has more to do economic factors combined with the fact that PS2 was incredibly well loved there and that PC gaming in certain European countries (Germany especially) still dominates sales.
Someone earlier noted that in the US you could likely attribute much of the uptake for X360 to have come from former PC gamers who saw their beloved PC games move to consoles. COD 3 for example was a console exclusive after it gained it's popularity on the PC. Oblivion moved to PC. As PC franchises made the move to consoles so too did many former PC gamers.
Combine that with flawless voice chat that is ubiquitous and requires no "fiddling" (compared to having to fiddle with Teamspeak/Ventrilo/etc.) and no need to hassle with drivers, etc. and users in the US were primed to move to X360 en mass.
When you consider as well that the US PC gaming population was much larger than the PC gaming population in Europe, that can account for much of the large disparity. Especially when many European countries remain quite attached to their PC gaming experience, thus even less European PC gamers made the switch.
As to the economic position. While there are certainly some affluent European countries (UK, Germany, France) there are also some not so affluent European countries (Spain, Greece, etc.). Those with more money can afford to consider multiple console purchases. Whether that is PS3 + Wii, or X360 + Wii, or PS3 + X360, or all three. Hence, X360 uptake in the UK was good, Germany PC gamers stuck to PC while PS2 gamers likely went to PS3, and who know's what's up with the French.
However, if you are in a less affluent country and you have less buying power. You may only have a choice of 1 console. If you can only own one console are you likely to go with a follow up of the console you already love (PS2 -> PS3), go with a console that is cheaper with a new experience (Wii), or a newcomer with a bad or nonexistant reputation from the last cycle (X360). I'd argue people in those countries would likely favor going with the tried and true and stick with PS3 (once you can afford it) or buy a Wii. And that's what you see in countries like Spain and Greece.
The RROD issue would only discourage further those with limited buying potential from investing in an X360, especially before MS implemented their extended replacement policy.
Unlike the Japan environment, nationalism doesn't even come into play in Europe or the US (where Japanese products often have or had a better reputation than their US counterparts).
Regards,
SB
Yes, I think that's the right question.
It's mainly because Sony fumbled and at the same time, MS throw significantly more $$$ on the Xbox collective brands. Sony's earlier marketing "This is Life" did nothing. They also don't react to negative spins on their brand at all for several years. In general, they just let their products do the talking, with sporadic tactical marketing. When combined with their rapid prototyping product release approach, the talking usually starts negatively. 8^). In short, they just don't manage their brand at all.
MS's marketing is more orchestrated, like a ball game, and more strategic. They are after market share, so they spent lots a money on promos. Sony is after near term profit, so they held back.
MS's campaigns cover the full spectrum from PR, endorsements, ads to discounts on a big scale, at critical selling moments. Sony's campaigns are usually just ads, events, and online, usually cheaper slots and smaller scale, and don't necessarily tie in together (it's all very loose)
Since US is a huge homogeneous market, marketing dollars spent here is rather efficient. In EU and Asia, the landscape is highly fragmented. So marketing spend is much less effective.
IMO Sony has built a strong level of brand awareness there with their successes in the past and MS hasn't done enough to win over that region. IIRC half way through this gen, MS admitted that they did not cater their marketing efforts to the specific countries in Europe. They treated it like the US with a one campaign fits all mentality, and that clearly isn't the case. Not to mention how Live is one of the 360's biggest supposed strengths but countries in Europe are missing some features Americans enjoy. Not sure if this is due to licensing issues over there or what, but it surely can't help their position.
However at this point, I'm not sure what MS can really do to win over Europe. I'd imagine many gamers there already have their console of choice picked out and would be quick to write off any merit the competition may have (just look at these forums
).Much better than this! Champion League Official sponsor !
You target a lot of "male", and market your product like a "rich" product (same class than an Audi in mind people) and you can flatter ego purchasers. Take also that many buy PS3 for Blu-ray in first and used this to sell PS3 to their wife, "Dear you can watch your "great" movies in Full HD! ". Now it's different, example French ISP (Free) give a boxe with Blu-ray 3D capable, so now it's more a story of price and placement product.
You have also the Heritage, in France people don't speak about game console, but Playstation, despite if they're playing on 360 or Wii!
Very funny to see that, people buying a game to the kids for Christmas and take the PS3 version despite the Kids console is a 360.
It was like that with Nintendo, and I believe is something like that with Xbox in the US. But then it's like that with lots of brands. The hoover is an adopted name for a vaccuum cleaner. The biro is an adopted name for a ball-point pen. If one can have a Dyson hoover, then one can have an Xbox playstation!
I known for adopted name, but the fact in France it's more than many people only want a Playstation with Sony name on.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
That could be true. The French do have a bit of an obssession with names. A few years back they managed to successfully sue all Champagne makers around the world. Claiming that the name didn't apply to a type of alcohol (like Wine, Sherry, Port, etc.) but should be limited only to those beverages that originate in the region of Champagne, France. Hence why all those other companies can only market their beverages as sparkling wine now.
So while a bit odd, I can certainly see the French, having an obssession over the Playstation brand name itself. And especially with identifying it only with consoles made by Sony.
Regards,
SB
So while a bit odd, I can certainly see the French, having an obssession over the Playstation brand name itself. And especially with identifying it only with consoles made by Sony.
Regards,
SB
That's true for a lot of European regional tradenames though, and nothing unique to the French. If securing a trademark improves your business then it's a sensible thing to do. Considering champagne is produced from the worst grapes grown in the worst conditions, it wouldn't be possible for any good-quality wine maker to reproduce those conditions, hence their attempt at 'champagne' wouldn't be the same (but would probably taste nice...That could be true. The French do have a bit of an obssession with names. A few years back they managed to successfully sue all Champagne makers around the world. Claiming that the name didn't apply to a type of alcohol (like Wine, Sherry, Port, etc.) but should be limited only to those beverages that originate in the region of Champagne, France. Hence why all those other companies can only market their beverages as sparkling wine now.
).Sadly Cheddar Cheese never secured a trademark, so zillions of companies are producing basic cheese without the region of Cheddar getting paid a penny!
In the case of PlayStation, Sony can't stop the generic use of their name by the masses, but they can prevent companies riding it, so a new XB couldn't be called the 'Microsoft XBox playstation'. Not that anyone would try that.
DuckThor Evil
Legend
That could be true. The French do have a bit of an obssession with names. A few years back they managed to successfully sue all Champagne makers around the world. Claiming that the name didn't apply to a type of alcohol (like Wine, Sherry, Port, etc.) but should be limited only to those beverages that originate in the region of Champagne, France. Hence why all those other companies can only market their beverages as sparkling wine now.
Like Shifty said, that's hardly anything particularly french...
Ford Motor for one was going to sue Ferrari, because they named their Formula one car F150, a name that is hardly used in any context at Ferrari and has even less to do with pick up trucks sold in NA.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Sure but that isn't even remotely the same. We're talking about a class of product versus a company owned trademark.
Champagne isn't a trademark owned by any company or corporation for instance. It's a region that happens to produce sparkling wine. Similar to Frankfurters (hot dogs) originating in the region of Germany. And as Shifty mentioned Cheddar cheese originating in a region in England.
Basically it's nothing unique other than the class of product inherits the name of origin. Whether it is called Champagne or Sparkling Wine, it is the exact same class of product.
It's as silly as if a country reserved the sole rights to the useage of Computer when selling any products that are computers. From now on you must all use the term calculation machine or somesuch. It's ridiculous.
Either way it shows a bit of an obssession with names as nationalistic pieces of pride/ownership. But yes you are correct that it isn't limited to the country of France. Spain has reserved the rights to Sherry as well. Although most countries tend to just ignore that.
Regards,
SB
Either way it shows a bit of an obssession with names as nationalistic pieces of pride/ownership. But yes you are correct that it isn't limited to the country of France. Spain has reserved the rights to Sherry as well. Although most countries tend to just ignore that.
Actually, I would say this is more U.S. behaviour than typical E.U. style behavior, as when it comes down to it, it's just an attempt at IP protection. In other words, it is as silly as a company trying to protect the term "App Store", isn't it?
This looks like a thorough list.
I'd be interested to see how much of the sales slack is MS/US "hate".
As Shifty said, he doesn't see much anti-American sentiment in the UK. And in the UK, xb360 sales are strong in comparison to ps3. Germany are mostly PC gamers. French people in general aren't very fond of Americans, so I could see the MS/US deal playing a role in lack of xb360 sales.
Spain, Greece, Italy, and the rest of Europe, I don't know how they view the US/MS, but in general, across the globe there are certainly strong pockets of anti-US sentiment which may be guiding purchase decisions of xb360 vs ps3. The other thing that may have an effect is poorer countries having a big problem with the $50/yr live fee. For these regions, it might be better for MS to allow silver members to play games on live, at least in some fashion.
Perhaps these pockets of anti-US sentiment are the reason why MS hasn't gone all in with a marketing/feature-parity effort in those regions as their research showed that the anti-US/MS image wasn't diluted enough to justify the investment.
Here in the States (and in UK), there isn't an inherent anti-US image to get over. Not that there is an inherent advantage mind you (Take a look at Japanese/Korean/German car sales vs American in the states), it's just that there isn't an insurmountable hurdle to get over to make a sales simply because it has an American Brand in these regions.
When there isn't a preconceived anti-x sentiment, it lets the product stand on its own merits.
The list above does a good job of explaining why the merits of the ps3 may be weighted heavier in the EU overall, but the anti-American sentiment may be why some of these advantages that the ps3 has currently exist over the xb360 as MS decided the investment to nullify these advantages wasn't worth the risk due to said anti-American sentiment.
Maybe that will change over time, maybe not.
Perhaps that whole co-branding thing with a large Japanese/Korean Company I was talking about in the Japan thread would also do some good for the European region
The it's a US product or Ms = evil reasons are crap. Does anyone here really believe that a substantial amount of people (> 1%) give a crap if it is a US product? The same people that are drinking american soda, eating american food, hearing american music, watching american movies and playing american games? The same is true for the MS = evil reason. Do you really think the average person doesn't buy a 360 cause of Ms? I even doubt that your average Joe would even combine the words MS and evil. He would probably tell you that Ms has invented the computer or the Internet or something like this, but i doubt he would say "oh they are sooo evil".
The biggest reasons here (Germany) are probably:
- Much bigger overlap of 360 and Pc games then Ps3 and Pc
- Free online
- And a big often overlooked reason, that goes both sides, your friends are on console X
The biggest reasons here (Germany) are probably:
- Much bigger overlap of 360 and Pc games then Ps3 and Pc
- Free online
- And a big often overlooked reason, that goes both sides, your friends are on console X
I can see negative political sentiment regards US foreign policy etc., but I can't see that affecting people's every day buying habits. Maybe I'm wrong, but googling some reference like Apple, the first thing I come across is this graph showing Apple iPod doing very well in France in 2009. Without any hard evidence or proper report in support, I don't see any reason to think an American console (or car, or anything else) is avoided solely because of its origins. and I think you're blaming a virtual non-existent factor. Anti-MS sentiment I could go with because of MS's legacy prior to releasing a console, but not anti-US products.
In fact, google "american boycotts in France" and you get a load of stories about the US boycotting french products. Googling "French Anti-Americanism" had this .pdf from 2005 as the third result which is a report, and its introduction reads:
I didn't bother to read it, but I'm seeing mounting evidence that your position is undefendable.