Why isn't XB360 outselling PS3 in Europe? *spawn

[Shifty Geezer]

Do you really think the average person doesn't buy a 360 cause of Ms? I even doubt that your average Joe would even combine the words MS and evil.

That's fairly true now, but when XB launched there was definitely anti MS sentiment, and a legacy of OS frustrations that associated MS with difficult products. That's coming from personal experience of banter around that time. Hence when comparing an MS console to one from a Japanese CE company, the MS one was inevitably going to have a bigger hill to climb. Now Windows 7 is providing a good experience and XB360 is gaining traction, previous negative brand image will be less restrictive, and it'll be a case of competing in a more level market in future, IMO.

 

[TheChefO]

Quote from your pdf article page 2:

Since then (the Iraq war 2003), anti-Americanism in France has been steadily high ...

So it isn't significantly worse in France than in other parts of Europe yet in France it is "steadily high" ... hmm


As for why Apple sells well there, Apple sells well everywhere (great marketing and usability), even in Japan .

Just because you don't see anti-Americanism/anti-MS in the UK, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




As I said, I agree that those factors listed by "function" and "Arwin" are playing a role in marketshare, but I think the reason they may be advantages for Sony in the first place is that perhaps MS has done the market research and found that further investment behind the xbox brand above what they have currently done would produce diminishing returns due to anti-MS/US sentiment.

Maybe that will change in the future.

Maybe I'm off completely and MS just hasn't had support ($) from HQ to grow the brand properly in Europe and Japan.

Who knows.

One quick way to nullify any possibility of anti-MS/US sentiment though would be to enlist a respected hardware partner that doesn't have any stigma to overcome.

Samsung
Matsushita (Panasonic)
Sony
Toshiba

Labeling the xbox720 with any of these brands would elevate the image of the box in peoples eyes (even here in the "home-field advantage" US), produce a higher quality engineered product, reduce the likelihood of future RRoD, and nullify most/all of the anti-US/MS sentiment that may be holding back sales.

Now doing this one step doesn't erase all of MS' problems of competing with Sony in the region, but that would take 4 out of the 7 advantages immediately off the table (assuming BR player is included in xb720).

Then it's simply a matter of working out the localization issues across the globe, bringing live feature parity, and continuing to fund development of unique IP's and reaching out to more risky/artful/out-of-the-box IP's can also afford to be developed given the broad nature of the expected marketshare by following the steps above.

Path of least resistance would of course be to team up with Sony, let them design the hardware (not cpu/gpu), reap the rewards of their distribution channels, and localization teams and let the profits roll in for both companies...

Outside of this pipe dream, they can take advantage of Samsung or Panasonic's good name/brand have them design the hardware and utilize their distribution channels and marketing teams.

Either way I think it is safe to say that branding (MS/US) is playing a roll in sales for certain regions. To ignore this and pretend it doesn't exist is to be blind to the world we live in today.

 

[TheChefO]

- And a big often overlooked reason, that goes both sides, your friends are on console X

This would support the console that launched first, not a year later.

As for pc games being more prominent on xb360 vs ps3, that wasn't known at launch. That being the case, launching first should have produced a positive peer effect for xb360, as you stated. It was also (much) cheaper up front and this was known well in advance, so the yearly $50 should not have had an effect as it would take 6 years to make up the difference of the optional xb-live cost.

The only effect that would have driven sales (or held them off) up front to drive the peer effect would be the bogus marketing that Sony did at e3 2005 hoping to stall buyers for a vastly superior gaming experience (that never happened).

Did it really take Europeans that long to figure out that ps3 wasn't going to live up to the hype or was there perhaps some anti-MS/US thing helping to stem the tide?

Or perhaps the RRoD did more damage than I'm giving credit for. I figured the extended warranty would ward off most of those fears but perhaps people in Europe weren't aware that the warranty was extended?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Quote from your pdf article page 2:


So it isn't significantly worse in France than in other parts of Europe yet in France it is "steadily high" ... hmm

Which means nothing. The introduction says a poll in 2005 shows France no more Anti-American than the rest of Europe. And that's irrelevant anyway if political sentiments aren't affecting buying habits. Do you have any real evidence that the French avoid US products because they come from America? Or is your reasoning simply - "XB360 isn't selling in France; XB360 is American; ergo French don't buy US products." You're drawing a correlation between public opinion on the American nation as founded on foreign policy and consumer buying habits of consumer products, but I don't think there's any evidence to support that. You certainly haven't presented any so far!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This would support the console that launched first, not a year later.

Unless people weren't convinced to buy the first console just because it was first when they knew there was another console coming out from a brand they trusted for two generations.

The only effect that would have driven sales (or held them off) up front to drive the peer effect would be the bogus marketing that Sony did at e3 2005 hoping to stall buyers for a vastly superior gaming experience (that never happened).

Oh, please. You clearly aren't being objective about this. "Clearly superior gaming experience" - if you can't uderstand that XB360 isn't all things to all people and there are other benefits to PS3 that make it a competitive product, even when they've been spelt out to you, then you can't possible argue this discussion rationalliy.

Did it really take Europeans that long to figure out that ps3 wasn't going to live up to the hype or was there perhaps some anti-MS/US thing helping to stem the tide?

Yes, that's exactly it. Poor, dumb, delusional Europeans, brainwashed by Sony marketing and now paying the price with having to play Uncharted 3.

 

[TheChefO]

Which means nothing.

So your article means nothing...

ok

As I stated, I don't have numbers or research to back this up other than things that I've seen and heard over the past couple decades.

The only hard numbers which do back up something of the sort are your article *ahem* and lack of sales equality in ps3 vs xb360 in Europe.

It's a theory.

I'm not stating it as fact that this is the single reason that ps3 is outselling xb360 in Eu.

I'm pondering the possibility that perhaps MS has done the research and found that further investment (feature parity, localization, better marketing/advertising) into some of these regions would be a money sink with little to show for it due to anti-MS/US sentiment.

If you're going to sit there and tell me that there is no anti-US/MS sentiment anywhere in EU well then I suppose I should ask how in the world you are able to game with only audio to guide you?

 

[TheChefO]

...if you can't uderstand that XB360 isn't all things to all people and there are other benefits to PS3 that make it a competitive product...

I've already recognized this ... pages ago...

Yes they have some exclusives, yes they have a quality brand, yes they have a BR player, yes they have better localization (including marketing/ads), yes they have free online play..

They also had some negatives along the way to negate some of these advantages...

Higher price
Launching late
Losing exclusives (and lack of others)
multiplat games looking/performing inferior
inferior online offering


It isn't a one sided story.

I have recognized that and stated as such.

However, the sales in the region don't tell a tale of parity.

So, I'm theorizing as to what might be at play here.

Shocking, I know.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So your article means nothing...

No - the article is saying France is no more anti-American then anywhere else (at least, that's what the intro says).

The only hard numbers which do back up something of the sort are your article *ahem*

It's not my article. It's the first thing Google threw up. At least I did a little bit of research.

and lack of sales equality in ps3 vs xb360 in Europe.

Which is an utterly ludicrous basis for comparison because there a whole load of variables in effect here! May as well claim
more DSes are sold than PSPs because DS was white and PSP was black.

If you're going to sit there and tell me that there is no anti-US/MS sentiment anywhere in EU well then I suppose I should ask how in the world you are able to game with only audio to guide you?

? Que? First I never said there wasn't anti-US sentiment - only that I don't see reason to think that is affecting people's buying habits. Second, what does 'game with only audio to guide you' mean?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I've already recognized this ... pages ago...

Yes they have some exclusives, yes they have a quality brand, yes they have a BR player, yes they have better localization (including marketing/ads), yes they have free online play..

However, the sales in the region don't tell a tale of parity.

But why should they? Pros/cons don't have a 1:1 relationship. It's not like "Sony is a trusted brand" is cancelled out by "loss of exclusives" and similar, such that at the end of your lists we have two neutral platforms that should be expected to sell 1:1. The presence of localized content could be worth a considerable amount. Free online might be worth way more to most European gamers than a 5% inferiority in those games' appearance in side-by-side comparisons with the XB360 version. In fact free online will be worth way more because most people aren't even aware of the XB360 versions being better! When you look at PS3's advantages in Europe, they weigh more heavily in PS3's favour than its disadvantages weigh against it. At least, that's what the sales story is telling us. Anyone who wants to ignore the obvious explanation that fits exactly with what one expects from free-market business and entertain theories of regional bias is free to do so, of course...

 

[AmFreak]

That's fairly true now, but when XB launched there was definitely anti MS sentiment, and a legacy of OS frustrations that associated MS with difficult products. That's coming from personal experience of banter around that time. Hence when comparing an MS console to one from a Japanese CE company, the MS one was inevitably going to have a bigger hill to climb. Now Windows 7 is providing a good experience and XB360 is gaining traction, previous negative brand image will be less restrictive, and it'll be a case of competing in a more level market in future, IMO.

That's not the same than Ms=evil that is bitching about a bad product. Sure it isn't good for a company, but how many of these people abandoned Ms products because of this frustration? I have bitched about Ms products for virtually my whole life and would it stop me to buy a Ms console? - No!. Do you really think people wouldn't have bought the XBox in 2002 if it would have been the best console graphics and content wise?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Do you really think people wouldn't have bought the XBox in 2002 if it would have been the best console graphics and content wise?

If that'was the only limiting factor, no. But when you have a lot of factors in play, it's one more reason to doubt an MS console. Those of us used to Windows crashing and BSODing and needing maintenance reinstalls questioned MS's capacity to release a platform that wouldn't also be buggy, and rightfully so based on previous experience, which adversely impacted on initial penetration and ultimately long-term adoption. Two consoles in and MS have proven that their ability to deisgn an excellent user experience in the console space vastly outstripped their abilities in the OS space, so their next console can be judged with more trust. Sony OTOH are perhaps creating more a reputation for getting things wrong in the user experience. None of these factors are absolute or deciding, but they all work together. In this case, MS's reputation limited faith in the new console when it launched, giving XB a harder time against the brand king PS, such that XB360 had less to build on. That is one of lots of reasons why XB360 isn't doing as well in Europe as PS3.

 

[AmFreak]

This would support the console that launched first, not a year later.

I said both sides, clearly the first launching has the advantage, but it doesn't mean it can't go the other way around. And the monthly fee for XBox Live didn't help. I personally know people who switched from 360 to Ps3 cause of the fee and their friends.

As for pc games being more prominent on xb360 vs ps3, that wasn't known at launch.

It was foreseeable cause of
- Xbox having more PC Games than PS2
- Microsoft "owning" the Pc and the 360 side
- Sony having much more studios then Ms and Sony studios only doing exclusive games.

That being the case, launching first should have produced a positive peer effect for xb360, as you stated. It was also (much) cheaper up front and this was known well in advance, so the yearly $50 should not have had an effect as it would take 6 years to make up the difference of the optional xb-live cost.

It's more a principle thing. To Pc gamers the idea that you have to pay to use your own bandwidth (aka p2p) for playing online is completly alien.

 

[AmFreak]

If that'was the only limiting factor, no.
But when you have a lot of factors in play, it's one more reason to doubt an MS console.

I'm with you if you say it can be the deciding factor, if others weigh themselves out.
But there are so many bigger factors that this virtually would never come into play.
The XBox without the bad ms name by the time wouldn't have fared different IMO.

Those of us used to Windows crashing and BSODing and needing maintenance reinstalls questioned MS's capacity to release a platform that wouldn't also be buggy, and rightfully so based on previous experience, which adversely impacted on initial penetration and ultimately long-term adoption. Two consoles in and MS have proven that their ability to deisgn an excellent user experience in the console space vastly outstripped their abilities in the OS space, so their next console can be judged with more trust.

Sarcasm? - So people trust Ms more now then in the past cause they have built essently 10 million or so pieces of junk (aka RROD).

 

[TheChefO]

http://www.princeton.edu/~ppns/papers/choudhury.pdf

A poll of 20,000 consumers across 20 countries {2005} ... found that nearly 20% of the foreign consumers surveyed stated that they consciously avoid purchasing American Brands ...

An earlier GMI poll conducted in 2004 privided similar results. Of the 8,000 individuals surveyed from all g8 countries, nearly 20% of respondents indicated that they were less willing to buy American products.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm with you if you say it can be the deciding factor, if others weigh themselves out.
But there are so many bigger factors that this virtually would never come into play.
The XBox without the bad ms name by the time wouldn't have fared different IMO.

I agree that with the negativity things would ahve still turned out the same for XB. PS2 just got so much right, except perhaps the lack of decent online by its end. However, if MS went into last gen with a really strong brand and a lot of consumer trust I think they'd have faired better. XB was a lot of hardware for the price (hence MS losing so much!). Although without the software support, maybe not. PS2 did very well due to the Japanese software contributions.

Sarcasm? - So people trust Ms more now then in the past cause they have built essently 10 million or so pieces of junk (aka RROD).

They haven't had crap OS. Loads of PS3's break too, and these don't have any convenient warranty. So I think it averages out in MS's favour. I can't honestly say what Joe Gamer will feel regards the RROD fiasco, but the Sony hack fiasco hasn't seen millions run away from PSN, so I don't think these disasters have nearly as much impact as the long-term experiences. The fact XB360 has grown market share shows MS are reaching more people, and more people will have experienced an MS console and seen it does work without needing a reinstall every 12 months, so those concerns are allayed. I don't think next gen any would-be console owners will be any more turned off of XB3 due to fears of breakdown or OS crapness than they will be turned off of PS4 due to fears of breakdown or OS crapness (yes, us gamers who have been requesting online features for years only to be ignored aren't going to be instant buyers of PS4 in the same way we trusted PS3 to build on PS2). But I don't honestly know what Pier Gamre and Juan Plaier and other continental types really think of the XB and PS brands now, other than they currently prefer to buy PS3's over XB360 in the main.

 

[aselto]

Sarcasm? - So people trust Ms more now then in the past cause they have built essently 10 million or so pieces of junk (aka RROD).

RROD issues are long gone now and Xbox is a very strong entertainment brand for Microsoft, potentially a foray info other entertainment/consumer products. MS has a very poor track record of successful ventures into that area, so finally having a strong marketshare is well worth the billions lost a loooong time ago. "Microsoft" being assossiated not only with OSes and office software but also with games it can at some point become assossiated with phones, TV or any other devices that has to have some software in it.

 

[Dominik D]

I don't think next gen any would-be console owners will be any more turned off of XB3 due to fears of breakdown or OS crapness than they will be turned off of PS4 due to fears of breakdown or OS crapness (yes, us gamers who have been requesting online features for years only to be ignored aren't going to be instant buyers of PS4 in the same way we trusted PS3 to build on PS2).

I'm actually quite certain that PS4 will be at least on-par with 360 when it comes to connectivity. Vita will surely prove (or disprove, but I don't think this will be the case) that Sony is capable of building an interesting online experience with a strong social component. I'm sure they'll get some things wrong initially (who doesn't make mistakes?) but by the time we get PS4 (whether it's 2012 or 2015 or whatever) they will have all the requested features they seem to be unable to cram into PS3 due to various technical reasons (back-compat of new features being one). The real question is what's beyond today's online and whether any of the platform holders is going to innovate in this space. I think that EA's Autolog (and it's variations) is something next-gen online will try to provide OOTB. What else is there to explore? Dunno, perhaps some sort of "game as a platform" thingie.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

http://www.princeton.edu/~ppns/papers/choudhury.pdf

Ah! A real reference for the basis of an argument! And to counter, I will turn to...the same document.

From the intro:

This paper explores the available literature on the economic impacts of anti-Americanism, a literature that demonstrates a remarkable division in opinion. While some business leaders particularly fear the adverse impact of declining levels of public trust in American businesses, others express confidence that consumer responses to surveys do not predict actual behavior.
This paper points out the difficulty of separating the economic impact of anti-Americanism from other factors and the lack of hard data demonstrating that anti-Americanism has directly or indirectly affected the bottom line of American companies competing in a global economy.

The second part of that passage you quoted:

However, both the GMI World Poll and the Roper/ASW survey leave several important empirical questions unanswered.
First, these opinion polls may not measure the deep-seated, negative bias towards the United States associated with anti-Americanism, but consumers’ “changeable opinions,” to use Peter Katzenstein and Robert Keohane characterization.38
As second and related question is whether what consumers’ responses to such polls reflect their behavior in the marketplace. Some sources claim that most people separate their politics from their behavior as consumers. In 2002, Research International surveyed 1500 people in 41 countries aged 18-34 and found that this held true even for political activists.39 One respondent to the survey noted that whenever he went to a protest against capitalism, the protesters wore Levi’s. He explained, “Our political view has nothing to do with our behavior as customers.”40 Some experts, like Rob Satloff of the Washington Institute, agree; Satloff argues that a chasm may separate individual opinion from individual behavior, necessitating empirical study of consumer conduct to assess the impact of anti-Americanism on sales of American goods.41

Furthermore, as time progresses behaviour normalises, and the likelihood of someone maintaining a boycott against desired products diminishes. Hence iPod selling better in France than other European nations despite a supposedly higher active interest in boycotting US products in 2005.

I'll grant that at least you've found some evidence that at XB360's launch it may have had some political baggage marring early adoption.

 

[fearsomepirate]

If anti-foreigner bias meant a whole lot, the Toyota Tundra wouldn't have been a huge success here in the States, and you wouldn't see people in purple SEIU shirts shopping at Walmart. At the end of the day, the desire to get the stuff you want at a price you can afford trumps the desire to stick it to some group you don't like.

 

[AlphaWolf]

If anti-foreigner bias meant a whole lot, the Toyota Tundra wouldn't have been a huge success here in the States, and you wouldn't see people in purple SEIU shirts shopping at Walmart. At the end of the day, the desire to get the stuff you want at a price you can afford trumps the desire to stick it to some group you don't like.

Is the Tundra a huge success? I'm not sure what you're basing that on, so I don't really know. I do know it doesn't sell better than Ford, Chev, GM or Dodge. That's not necessarily the only benchmark of success, but it's often all we get.

I think there is something to nationalism affecting purchases, but I don't believe it's a simple thing and isn't necessarily a nationwide phenomenon (out of the whole country if 30% of the people feel that way, that's still a significant barrier, but not necessarily fatal). A foreign product doing well isn't necessarily evidence against.