When will Nvidia finally get out of the NV30 rut?

[Nick Spolec]

It's looking more and more like Nvidia will once again be in second place this time around (and it's not because a lack of effort).

While the NV40 is leaps and strides above their previous offering, it appears that Nvidia is STILL suffering from their NV30 debacle, and their new chip is still carrying some of the traits/flaws introduced with the NV30 (IQ/Performance ratio, heat, and power).

On the otherhand, ATI simply appears to have the 'right stuff'.

So, when do you think Nvidia will "get it's shit straight", and be back on top? Will they ever be able to get out of the shadow of the NV30? Will we have to wait for the NV50 to really seem if Nvidia can get back in true form?

 

[Bjorn]

While the NV40 is leaps and strides above their previous offering, it appears that Nvidia is STILL suffering from their NV30 debacle, and their new chip is still carrying some of the traits/flaws introduced with the NV30 (IQ/Performance ratio, heat, and power).

I'm of the opinion that it's vastly different this time. There is a huge difference between the featureset and this time clearly to Nvidias advantage. I would have tend to agree if R420 had FP32, SM3.0 support though.

 

[Nick Spolec]

I'm of the opinion that it's vastly different this time. There is a huge difference between the featureset and this time clearly to Nvidias advantage. I would have tend to agree if R420 had FP32, SM3.0 support though.

I agree it's different, but something tells me that Nvidia's starting point in the designing of the NV40 was the NV30.

 

[mozmo]

I think it's all timing, looks like nvidia poured a lot of hardwork to bringing their shader speed up to standard, but realise too that they put a lot of work into getting full sm3 complience, so although they lost this round, i think when the refresh cycle arrives nvidia will look a lot better since they've already put that hard yards in for sm3 and have good solid architecture now. Now they can concentrate on performance just like ATI has for the last 2 years, where as ATI's next step is to deliver the features that nv40 has bring 32bit rendering to the forefront, something they seem very scared to do, so in essence it seems that ATI will have to work harder to keep up although they have the peformance lead now.

 

[fallguy]

ATi has features NV doesnt have, too.

I dont give a flying flip about PS 3.0, or FP32 to be honest. I have yet to see any benches, showing how much better FP32 is, and how much of a performance hit it takes. Likewise for PS 3.0. Its supposed to make NV4x cards faster, but there are no numbers to compare. While its nice it has those features, it would be even nicer if we could see them being used. Once they are, then my stance will probably change.

And I think this series of cards did get them out of the rut they were in with the NV3x series. While I dont think they are back on top, they're pretty close. The fixed AA is the best thing to me.

 

[davepermen]

this is not something that tells it to you, it's actually a known fact.

i think..

on the other hand, ati did the same this round and what was claimed is now true: the r300 architecture is very performance-scalable. the nv30 architecture is very feature-scalable (and quite performance-scalable, too).

i'm waiting for some nice aiw now.. hdtv aiw based on r420... in one slot.. yummi !

 

[The549]

I'd have to agree with the Swede here....The nv40, tho outputting lots of heat, would be my next card if I had the money (actually a drumset would be first, heh). It seems to have more features and potential. Nvidia makes a refresh that refines the shortcomings of the 68, then it'll have a completely awesome card.

 

[jvd]

While the NV40 is leaps and strides above their previous offering, it appears that Nvidia is STILL suffering from their NV30 debacle, and their new chip is still carrying some of the traits/flaws introduced with the NV30 (IQ/Performance ratio, heat, and power).

I'm of the opinion that it's vastly different this time. There is a huge difference between the featureset and this time clearly to Nvidias advantage. I would have tend to agree if R420 had FP32, SM3.0 support though.

hmmm i dunno. SOunds alot like the r200 vs the geforce ti .

Ati had more features then but nvidia had the speed. Guess which card was bought the most ?

 

[Ostsol]

I'd have to agree with the Swede here....The nv40, tho outputting lots of heat, would be my next card if I had the money (actually a drumset would be first, heh). It seems to have more features and potential. Nvidia makes a refresh that refines the shortcomings of the 68, then it'll have a completely awesome card.

I'm leaning towards agreeing, too. I feel hesitant at the thought, perhaps indicating bias toward ATI on my part, but what ATI has brought to the table this round has not impressed me. I do like the Ruby demo more, though it is clear that ATI and NVidia had different intents when they created their respective demos, so I'm not entirely sure that they're comparable. Also there's the heat and power issues, though even if I were to get ATI's X800 XT I'd definitely want to revamp my entire system. Anyway, NVidia has brought forth a great boost in speed, plus a very rich featureset. I am concerned about their OpenGL drivers -- specifically their GLSL implementation, but other than that NVidia is looking quite good. . .

 

[mozmo]

ATi has features NV doesnt have, too.

6xAA and some of ATI's other features are not a prerequisite for next gen games though, the sm3 is a feature complience for developers to target, AA and AF modes are not something developers care for and or develop their games too. By the end of the year we should see some sm3.0 games so if ATI cards are still lacking that then it won't look too good for them imo.

Personally i have a 9700pro and missed the 9800pro/xt cycles because they really offered not a lot compared to my overclocked 9700pro, i'll be grabbing a X800XT because of the power and heat issues and the fact it doubles what i current use. I really like the nv40 but like others here it needs a refresh cylce to reduce power usuage and pump those clocks, the it will really shine.

 

[Bjorn]

Nvidia makes a refresh that refines the shortcomings of the 68, then it'll have a completely awesome card.

That it true.

But good old Dave B have already hinted that we might see a new card from Ati in about 6 months. A card that isn't simply a R420 refresh (that's my interpretation at least ). So the NV40 refresh (NV45 i guess) might have some good competition, also in the feature department

 

[Ostsol]

While the NV40 is leaps and strides above their previous offering, it appears that Nvidia is STILL suffering from their NV30 debacle, and their new chip is still carrying some of the traits/flaws introduced with the NV30 (IQ/Performance ratio, heat, and power).

I'm of the opinion that it's vastly different this time. There is a huge difference between the featureset and this time clearly to Nvidias advantage. I would have tend to agree if R420 had FP32, SM3.0 support though.

hmmm i dunno. SOunds alot like the r200 vs the geforce ti .

Ati had more features then but nvidia had the speed. Guess which card was bought the most ?

That's true. ATI has a much smaller, cooler, less power-hungry card, that performs just as well, if not better in some situations. It's sure to be a hit with OEMs, too.

 

[jvd]

ATi has features NV doesnt have, too.

6xAA and some of ATI's other features are not a prerequisite for next gen games though, the sm3 is a feature complience for developers to target, AA and AF modes are not something developers care for and or develop their games too. By the end of the year we should see some sm3.0 games so if ATI cards are still lacking that then it won't look too good for them imo.

Well you don't know if next gen games will use sm3 . They may skip it .

Remember only the nv40 line supports it . Meanwhile 3 lines support p.s 2.0 and all the lines since geforce 3 support 1.1

 

[Megadrive1988]

Nvidia is much more on even ground with ATI this time. some areas better, other areas worse. nowhere near as bad (for Nvidia) as the NV3x vs R3xx.

 

[mozmo]

Well from what i've heard sm3.0 is a compile away for well written shader code, and with nvidia's influence over developers i can see quite few titles at the end of the year with sm3.0 support, it's obviously a good place to go since sm3.0 does give you a lot of options and performance improvements. Hell in a couple of weeks we're gonna see a sm3.0 far cry so i think the adoption of sm3 might be quicker than sm2.

 

[Bjorn]

Well you don't know if next gen games will use sm3 . They may skip it .

Remember only the nv40 line supports it . Meanwhile 3 lines support p.s 2.0 and all the lines since geforce 3 support 1.1

NVidia has a rather large dev support though. And it's much easier to add support for SM3.0 with HLSL's. Could be just a simple recompile, although that would possibly only gain speed.

 

[davepermen]

on the other hand, before nv30, nvidia was GOD. everyone believed in them, and praised them.

now, they are just one choise of gpu vendors. ati is another, and respected as such. now they have to be both great to compete. the fast vs. feature is there, ati looks like it is the winner in terms of fast, definitely in the ordinary-gpu-line (that means max one power connection, max one slot, rather quiet, not that hot, usable in every ordinary small pc).

but we'll see. nvidia has more features. but i prefer the ati image quality features (i hope we see temporal aa for 1xaa (means if fps are high, jitter the one sample you have..)), and in general, it simply feels like a more robust shading unit.

me, as xpc owner, i will definitely stay with ati, as they try to make the high end work in non-high-end pc's as well.. but i'm happy to see nvidia having a good piece of hw this round, too

 

[jvd]

Well you don't know if next gen games will use sm3 . They may skip it .

Remember only the nv40 line supports it . Meanwhile 3 lines support p.s 2.0 and all the lines since geforce 3 support 1.1

NVidia has a rather large dev support though. And it's much easier to add support for SM3.0 with HLSL's. Could be just a simple recompile, although that would possibly only gain speed.

which may equal nothing if p.s 3 on nv40 ends up slower or the same speed as p.s 2.0 on the r420. Not only that if used in other ways it may decrease performance , so who knows.

All i know is right here and now and the xt is the fastest card out

 

[davepermen]

to all: sm3.0 is not _REALLY_ ment to gain speed. it _can_ give some minor improvements. but its MAINLY only for having more shading-capability-freedom in terms of coding. much longer, and much more complex / complicated shaders possible now. and for this, people have to rethink and rewrite existing shaders. that will take time, even with HLSL. of course you can gain speed. but not with simple recompilation, only with rewriting. you have to redesign your shader to use the new features to speed up the same task you had to do different before.

we'll see..

 

[Bjorn]

which may equal nothing if p.s 3 on nv40 ends up slower or the same speed as p.s 2.0 on the r420. Not only that if used in other ways it may decrease performance , so who knows.

That is true and it'll probably take a while before we know how this pans out. Although the Far Cry SM2.0/3.0 patch should at least say something, whenever it's released.