What can we do to help young boys out there?

[KimB]

1. Equality ALREADY exist for women... Those program are simply to gives women easy pass..

Perhaps I overstated my case somewhat, but this is just complete nonsense. We have not achieved equality, not even close. And your links demonstrate this.

And plus

Young women acrually make MORE money than Men nowadays

http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/wages/young_women_earn_more_than_men_in_big_cities.html

If you read this more carefully, you'll note that it states that this only appears to be the case in a few isolated areas.

Medical resreach focus more on female illness than Male

http://www.fightprostatecancer.org/...r_Statistics-Funding_for_a_Cure.pdf?docID=203

I don't see how this in any way relates to gender differences in medical research.

As for your second question

-Mother always have full custody of the children even if she was a crack ****.

This is the one I will grant. There is a problem in our legal system where it is generally assumed that the mother will necessarily be the better caregiver. The others, however, are either unevidenced, or are easily explained by the simple fact that the male rate of commission of these crimes so vastly outstrips the female rate of commission that it's no surprise that the law gets a bit confused.

And naturally women have different physical requirements for certain jobs: women aren't built the same. They also aren't allowed to have the same jobs within the military. I have yet to find any evidence that this is the case for the police.

 

[KimB]

Gender, Work and Organization. Vol. 10 No. 2 March 2003
Proves I was right on the issue of families.

Perhaps. But you were totally wrong to claim that this isn't discrimination. Men and women are different, and any system that doesn't take those differences into account engages in discrimination.

 

[Sxotty]

Perhaps. But you were totally wrong to claim that this isn't discrimination. Men and women are different, and any system that doesn't take those differences into account engages in discrimination.

There you stumbled onto something. I never said that there was not discrimination. I said there is discrimination to help women in science and engineering at the undergrad level. That is a fact. Now the workplace environment is a whole different kettle of fish. And as you notice men can like their family too. The fact is the period of life when you are trying to get tenure is ridiculously stressful for most academics. The reason they do it for less pay (than other similarly stressful jobs) is the autonomy they have to decide what research they want to do (if they can find funding).

Edit:
BTW I personally think the family thing is super important for men and women. I think now days in more and more professions there just isn't tome to have a good family life and do well in your chosen profession. (just look at how much americans work in relation to other nations.)

 

[KimB]

There you stumbled onto something. I never said that there was not discrimination. I said there is discrimination to help women in science and engineering at the undergrad level. That is a fact.

Sure. It's also not discrimination. It's an attempt to overcome discrimination. When we get to a situation where men and women graduates in the sciences are approximately equal, and women have as much decision-making power as men, then there will be no need for such groups. In the mean time they are necessary to continue to reduce the gender gap.

The thing you are apparently not recognizing is that even without any intent to discriminate, the simple fact that men almost exclusively hold positions of power in the educational system (and many others) ensures that decisions will be made from a male perspective, which naturally marginalizes women. The problem, however, is that added on top of this are inaccurate and destructive attitudes, such as that women have less drive, are less motivated, or are less intelligent. Sexism will not disappear until women and men have equal say in the decision-making process, and there is no cause whatsoever to call discrimination against men until that equality is achieved.

 

[PSman]

Sure. It's also not discrimination. It's an attempt to overcome discrimination. When we get to a situation where men and women graduates in the sciences are approximately equal, and women have as much decision-making power as men, then there will be no need for such groups. In the mean time they are necessary to continue to reduce the gender gap.

The thing you are apparently not recognizing is that even without any intent to discriminate, the simple fact that men almost exclusively hold positions of power in the educational system (and many others) ensures that decisions will be made from a male perspective, which naturally marginalizes women. The problem, however, is that added on top of this are inaccurate and destructive attitudes, such as that women have less drive, are less motivated, or are less intelligent. Sexism will not disappear until women and men have equal say in the decision-making process, and there is no cause whatsoever to call discrimination against men until that equality is achieved.

Nothing can be 50/50. If women are doing poorly in science or there are more Men in the science field. They have no one to blame but themselves.

And what decission making process? It's Men fault that women aren't in power? Boys are falling behind girls in school, there are more women in colleges than men, and you're saying women are being discriminated against?

The law is itself is already bias toward women, they have no rights to scream sexism and discrimination.

Perhaps I overstated my case somewhat, but this is just complete nonsense. We have not achieved equality, not even close. And your links demonstrate this.

My link shows that women are actually MAKE MORE than Men in some area, where Men are actually making less. And funny how you completely ignore my other points.

 

[KimB]

Nothing can be 50/50. If women are doing poorly in science or there are more Men in the science field. They have no one to blame but themselves.

And what decission making process? It's Men fault that women aren't in power?

Blame is a stupid concept. It's not about blame. It's about identifying issues and identifying ways to improve those issues. One serious issue is that women are not represented in decision-making positions. This ensures that even in an ideal world where all men have good intentions, women's issues are going to be marginalized.

Boys are falling behind girls in school, there are more women in colleges than men, and you're saying women are being discriminated against?

Yes. Because boys obtaining slightly fewer bachelor's degrees is more likely due to the cultural identity of masculinity among certain demographics. That women are competitive with men here shows, beyond reasonable doubt, that lack of desire is not the issue. The problem is that the system, which was built up in an age where women were completely marginalized, is constructed so that it is much more difficult for women to succeed. Add on top of this the misogyny that women frequently have to deal with, largely due to men just not being exposed to women enough to understand their position, and you have an atmosphere where only a tiny fraction of women ever make it to senior-level positions, in almost any field.

The law is itself is already bias toward women, they have no rights to scream sexism and discrimination.

They have every right, because they don't have power.

My link shows that women are actually MAKE MORE than Men in some area, where Men are actually making less.

In a particular area, and without bothering to list potential causes. Women earning less is still the norm, and without listing causes, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that men are in any way disadvantaged.

 

[PSman]

Blame is a stupid concept. It's not about blame. It's about identifying issues and identifying ways to improve those issues. One serious issue is that women are not represented in decision-making positions. This ensures that even in an ideal world where all men have good intentions, women's issues are going to be marginalized.

They have no one to blame but themselves for that.

They have every right, because they don't have power.

And whose fault is that?


The point is that women have the same oportunities as Men, so they have no right to cry sexism and discrimination. Plus, Men issue should also be equally address. There are already tons of organization out there supporting women, but none for Men.

 

[KimB]

They have no one to blame but themselves for that.

And you honestly think that women are the reason why women were considered virtually non-persons for millennia in our culture and in the European culture ours stemmed from?

And whose fault is that?

It's no person's fault. It's a system that was set up organically by people who didn't understand the full impact of their decisions. There is nobody to blame. Nobody to place at fault. What there are, however, are things we can do to make things better.

The point is that women have the same oportunities as Men, so they have no right to cry sexism and discrimination. Plus, Men issue should also be equally address. There are already tons of organization out there supporting women, but none for Men.

Men have almost all of the leadership positions in the US. We don't need special groups, because the leadership is already on our side. Women forming special groups and organizations in no way marginalizes men. It merely helps to level the playing field.

 

[PSman]

And you honestly think that women are the reason why women were considered virtually non-persons for millennia in our culture and in the European culture ours stemmed from?

Yes, because women ALLOWED Men to "oppress" them, so they have no right to blame Men for their "oppression"

Men have almost all of the leadership positions in the US. We don't need special groups, because the leadership is already on our side. Women forming special groups and organizations in no way marginalizes men. It merely helps to level the playing field

On Men side? Laughable.. If anything, the law are bias toward women.

There should be groups to address Men issue also, now THAT'S equality

 

[KimB]

Yes, because women ALLOWED Men to "oppress" them, so they have no right to blame Men for their "oppression"

Wow. Just wow. So if a woman allows a man to rape her she is to be blamed for the rape? Really, now.

But whatever, this doesn't matter one iota, because it's not about blame. It's about improving the system so that people, no matter who they are, are not marginalized.

On Men side? Laughable.. If anything, the law are bias toward women.

Complete and utter nonsense.

There should be groups to address Men issue also, now THAT'S equality

Then why don't you form one? Oh, wait, you would have a hard time banding men together because they don't care? Why is, it, do you think, that women have no trouble whatsoever banding together in a common cause?

 

[KimB]

Yes..

duh..

Oh, my. Well, I guess this conversation is over. You're just too evil a person to bother with.

I will form one. There many Men out there who care. I've personally meet them.

Then do it and stop whining. I'm done with this conversation.

 

[PSman]

Then do it and stop whining. I'm done with this conversation.

Uh..Who's whinning? You're the one that start the debates

I'm done with this conversation.

Ok




Anyway, my point is that, I feel that we need to do something to help young boys so that they won't fall behind in class. I created this topic to ask for some opinion, that's all.

 

[nutball]

Anyway, my point is that, I feel that we need to do something to help young boys so that they won't fall behind in class. I created this topic to ask for some opinion, that's all.

Why help them? If they are failing, they have no-one to blame but themselves.

 

[L233]

Yes, because women ALLOWED Men to "oppress" them, so they have no right to blame Men for their "oppression"

IMO you have just disqualified yourself from this debate. This is one of the most retardedly naive things I've ever read.

 

[Sxotty]

Why help them? If they are failing, they have no-one to blame but themselves.

That is the crux of the issue. You cannot have it both ways.

If women don't need help then neither do boys.

The fact is both need help for different things. Chanloth wonders why men don't have support groups. The answer is in our culture it is seen as a weakness for a man to admit they need help and women are much more likely to admit as much.

Chanloth your whole argument supports the original topic, mostly women are in decision making roles for the younger population being educated. So you have exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about at higher levels of education. And if you don't finish high school, college might be a wee bit hard.

Educators know this btw, there are lots of conferences for grade school teachers focusing on the needs of boys that are largely overlooked b/c they are more rowdy etc...and they are falling behind. Girls are rapidly closing the gap in math and science and I bet they will surpass boys in the very near future in that area as well.

 

[KimB]

Chanloth your whole argument supports the original topic, mostly women are in decision making roles for the younger population being educated. So you have exactly the opposite of what you are complaining about at higher levels of education. And if you don't finish high school, college might be a wee bit hard.

Evidence please.

 

[Sxotty]

Evidence please.

You don't need spoonfed.

Did you bother clicking on the link in the first post?
http://www.menshealthnetwork.org/boys/factsheets/01-crisis.php

Check their sources for the facts if you doubt them. For people in education this is common knowledge Chanloth. Find some teachers who are not lazy bums and actually care about their profession and they will know it.

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/specialrpts/boys/060327admit.shtml

A Pennsylvania college added more photos of men to its admissions brochures. A small Maine school started a Division III football team. A large Southern university eased its admission standards for male applicants.

Across the country, as the proportion of female college students continues a decades-long surge, admissions departments are looking for ways to attract more men.

Few schools will admit using affirmative action, especially after a University of Georgia policy that favored men was struck down as unconstitutional. However, a recent study by a Skidmore College economist found that it's not uncommon for historically female liberal arts colleges to show a preference for men.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm

In May, the Minnesota Office of Higher Education posted the inevitable culmination of a trend: Last year for the first time, women earned more than half the degrees granted statewide in every category, be it associate, bachelor, master, doctoral or professional.

As women march forward, more boys seem to be falling by the wayside, McCorkell says. Not only do national statistics forecast a continued decline in the percentage of males on college campuses, but the drops are seen in all races, income groups and fields of study, says policy analyst Thomas Mortenson, publisher of the influential Postsecondary Education Opportunity newsletter in Oskaloosa, Iowa. Since 1995, he has been tracking — and sounding the alarm about — the dwindling presence of men in colleges.

You can do more research if you want, but the facts are indisputable. Perhaps in a few areas there is still a bias against women, but in the educational area there is no doubt boys of all socio-economic groups are falling behind.

It just isn't popular yet to say that boys are doing badly so there is not a furor about this. If the trend was going to opposite way people would be freaking out and having marches in the streets.

 

[Verge]

beat them without mercy


ban MTV

 

[PSman]

IMO you have just disqualified yourself from this debate. This is one of the most retardedly naive things I've ever read.

Ok, maybe that was a bit extreme and I shouldn't have said that.

It just that I'm tired of people keep on saying women (in America) are still being "oppress" and "held-back" when the fact is that, they have the SAME opportunity and as MUCH rights as Men.

 

[_xxx_]

Will someone PLEASE move this to RPSC?