What about a digital download rental service?

Used markets give new items greater value, thus making it better for the consumer and creator.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying with regards to the Book market. It hurts, but on its own it doesn't hurt the book market as badly as it does the console market.

For used books there's a large difference between a used book and a new book, especially if the used book is old and has been passed around a lot. I take excellant care of my physical books but overtime even with the best of care, the paperbacks start to get brittle, the glue in the binding starts to get brittle, the pages start to yellow, etc. It's basically incentive to buy new rather than used.

With used game copies up until recently there was almost zero benefit or incentive to buy new other than to have the game on Day 1. If they game has been out a week or two. Whether you buy new or buy used, you get the exact same product with no quality differences.

The same could be said of music CDs and movie DVDs/BRDs. But unlike music and movies, books and console games don't usually have merchandising revenue or live performance revenue in the case of music artists. There's obviously the rare cases. The Japanese market in Japan with game related merchandise or mega games like Blizzard games. But by and large in the western markets a developer and publishers success is dependant solely on new games sales and nothing else.

Hence, why the used market hurts console game developers and publishers far more than it does the book, music, or movie industry.

This whole used markets are bad is just not an accurate statement. I'm with you on publishers being able to adjust their prices, for inflation or any reason for that matter. Again, we're back at the main crux of the issue and that is a quality product.

Whether something is good or bad is entirely up to which viewpoint you hold. For consumers it's generally good as they can get a great deal if they wish to wait for it.

For game retailers it's a good thing as well. If not for used games (incredibly high margins) they would be out of business with the razor thin margins available with the consoles games and hardware due to publishers trying to keep prices as low as possible.

For developers and publishers its often quite bad. Especially for the smaller developers and smaller and/or niche games which are already less likely to have a blockbuster hit that can more than make up for any used game losses. So Infinity Ward was probably not affected much by used game sales other than just not making as much as they could have otherwise. So buckets of cash is still buckets of cash. On the other hand you have developers like Pandemic Studios which ceased to exist soon after sales of their game turned out to be disappointing. Most developers are operating near the line that if crossed leads you to going out of business and being shut down like Pandemic rather than not being affected by market variations like Infinity Ward or even Treyarch.

Every used copy that is sold is money they can't use to recoup their initial investment or invest into a new game. And in many ways it's even worse than pirating. A common excuse for pirating is that they never would have bought the game anyway, so a developer never would have seen the money anyway (I think this is a load of BS, but whatever).

On the other hand someone that bought a used copy was obviously willing to buy the game. Probably not at full price, but eventually the game prices go down and at some point a new copy will be similarly priced to a used copy although it may take months longer to reach that point than the week or two or four for a used copy. So in this case, someone is certainly paying money for the game that you, as a developer, spent the past X years making...but you aren't seeing single a single penny from those sales for those X years of effort.

Speaking of which, that's where going purely digital distribution will have huge benefits. If we use Steam's digital distribution history as an example. We see that games quite often start to hit used game sale prices in a matter of weeks/months. Not having to deal with recouping investment in physical duplication, packaging, shipping, retail agreements, etc. means that they can start putting games on sale for lower prices much sooner than you can with physical retail games.

Regards,
SB
 
Exactly, that's what I've been saying with regards to the Book market. It hurts, but on its own it doesn't hurt the book market as badly as it does the console market.

For used books there's a large difference between a used book and a new book, especially if the used book is old and has been passed around a lot. I take excellant care of my physical books but overtime even with the best of care, the paperbacks start to get brittle, the glue in the binding starts to get brittle, the pages start to yellow, etc. It's basically incentive to buy new rather than used.

With used game copies up until recently there was almost zero benefit or incentive to buy new other than to have the game on Day 1. If they game has been out a week or two. Whether you buy new or buy used, you get the exact same product with no quality differences.

The same could be said of music CDs and movie DVDs/BRDs. But unlike music and movies, books and console games don't usually have merchandising revenue or live performance revenue in the case of music artists. There's obviously the rare cases. The Japanese market in Japan with game related merchandise or mega games like Blizzard games. But by and large in the western markets a developer and publishers success is dependant solely on new games sales and nothing else.

Hence, why the used market hurts console game developers and publishers far more than it does the book, music, or movie industry.



Whether something is good or bad is entirely up to which viewpoint you hold. For consumers it's generally good as they can get a great deal if they wish to wait for it.

For game retailers it's a good thing as well. If not for used games (incredibly high margins) they would be out of business with the razor thin margins available with the consoles games and hardware due to publishers trying to keep prices as low as possible.

For developers and publishers its often quite bad. Especially for the smaller developers and smaller and/or niche games which are already less likely to have a blockbuster hit that can more than make up for any used game losses. So Infinity Ward was probably not affected much by used game sales other than just not making as much as they could have otherwise. So buckets of cash is still buckets of cash. On the other hand you have developers like Pandemic Studios which ceased to exist soon after sales of their game turned out to be disappointing. Most developers are operating near the line that if crossed leads you to going out of business and being shut down like Pandemic rather than not being affected by market variations like Infinity Ward or even Treyarch.

Every used copy that is sold is money they can't use to recoup their initial investment or invest into a new game. And in many ways it's even worse than pirating. A common excuse for pirating is that they never would have bought the game anyway, so a developer never would have seen the money anyway (I think this is a load of BS, but whatever).

On the other hand someone that bought a used copy was obviously willing to buy the game. Probably not at full price, but eventually the game prices go down and at some point a new copy will be similarly priced to a used copy although it may take months longer to reach that point than the week or two or four for a used copy. So in this case, someone is certainly paying money for the game that you, as a developer, spent the past X years making...but you aren't seeing single a single penny from those sales for those X years of effort.

Speaking of which, that's where going purely digital distribution will have huge benefits. If we use Steam's digital distribution history as an example. We see that games quite often start to hit used game sale prices in a matter of weeks/months. Not having to deal with recouping investment in physical duplication, packaging, shipping, retail agreements, etc. means that they can start putting games on sale for lower prices much sooner than you can with physical retail games.

Regards,
SB

Sorry but i do not buy the Used book argument. A book that has been read one time would really have to be made by some speciel paper or abused hard if it were to be in such a state that it wouldn´t sell as a used book. A book would have to change hands at least a few times before it started to show wear.
And used games are exactly the same, some of them are without a scratch and some of them looks complete smashed. I think that in the case of books it´s just different, that most people buy a book and then keeps it. Compared to games, books tend not to get old as fast as games. A 5 year old game is usually not as attractive as a new game, while a book usually is just as good.

Even though publishers of both games and books might wish that it should only be possible for one person to play or read the book i just think it´s screwed up. I buy a book, and i let my wife, kids and brother read it... and that is wrong? They should all buy a copy, right? Wrong! The same goes for games, my games get played by others than me, my kids should buy their own copies? And when their friends come over, they better be bringing copies of the games they want to play, because ours is just for us! Where to draw the line? at family? friends? swapping games? selling?

The price for book, cd´s, movies and games should be set at such a level that the publishers think they get what they should, including the second hand market, i have no problem with them milking money out of the second hand market with "online" passes etc. But the moment they turn the price to high and kill second hand markets we all know what happens, hello pirate copies.

I see the problem, but i just think it´s wrong to think of a cd,game,movie or a book as license to read,play,watch or listen to something. It´s mine, i bought it and as long as i don´t sell copies i should be allowed to do whatever else i want, including selling it. If the publishers want me to keep my game, keep on adding value (hello burnout) and not just asking me to pay for DLC.

Imagine if the publishers had had their way in past, how would i be able to buy games for my old consoles? Out of stock games.. would really be out of stock.
 
Imagine if the publishers had had their way in past, how would i be able to buy games for my old consoles? Out of stock games.. would really be out of stock.

Assuming digital distribution capability then it would be no different than the PC market today. Where you can digitally purchase games that have not been available on physical media for over a decade now. Games going all the way back to the early 90's. Most of the stuff from the 80's is usually considered abandonware and is free to download.

Of course, with consoles being a closed system, we may or may not ever see that sort of flexibility with old games as we do on an open system such as x86 based PCs.

Regards,
SB
 
Books and VG aren't necessarily comparable when you're trying to discuss the impact of the existence of the used games markets on those respective industries.

Most books cost at most £5-£15, unless you start talking about textbooks which get revised over time with new editions and thus always generally give textbook consumers more reason to buy the newest editions. Books mostly don't cost tens (even hundreds in some cases) of millions of dollars to produce and market either.

VG are more akin to films and the film industry, but even then film companies have the benefit of being able to "sell" the "Cinema Experience" as well as increasing revenues from television deals and mechandising.

VG usually only really have one method of earning money, and the used games industry ostensibly eats into that in a signifiant measure.

I personally don't necessarily agree that the removal of the used games market would be bad for game sales in totality. It would most definintely impact new games at or close to launch. However, given how quickly games (bought new) come down in price as other new games are released, gamers with less disposable would still be able to pick those game up at discounted rates. Without the used games industry to sap potential profits from pubs/devs, games would have longer sales legs and publishers would have an even greater incentive to discount older games as they would be earning money off them over a much longer period by staggering the pricing curve of games such that they can maximise their sales from each of the various consumer levels (from richest to poorest). The loss of the used games market would only mean that some gamers might have to give up their love affair with buying games on launch day, but they can do so with an assurance that the games will come down in price later on (this is what most gamers do now anyway).

The used games market as it is is a farce. Used games close to the title launch are not much less expensive than new games. Yet Game stores fleece their customers with shitty resale values on fairly new games anyway (they're also trying to maximise their profits). Older used games are discounted to the point where buying those games new doesn't make any sense and thus game sales from the publisher's perspective tail off far too quickly such that after a certain period, even though consumers are still buying their games, they are making no money from those sales. Thus pubs put all of their marketing efforts and dollars into building launch day hype and creating an "event" out of game launches. Thus marketing budgets balloon and consumers have to deal with a whole plethora of added shit like preorder bonuses, exclusive retailer DLC, on-line passes and such just because pubs know that they have only a very short window within which to sell a game for them to make any money off it. And retailers like Gamestop get fat and rich while devs and publishers flounder in losses after losses because they continually fail to persuade consumers to buy games day one for all but the biggest most prolific MP-focussed franchises. It's a shitty situation.

Without the used-games market, i truly believe that sanity can return to the industry by the mere prospect of publishers being able to make money off their games for a much longer period. I believe that it will benefit them by letting them focus on marketing spend over a longer period, whilst improving their revenue from each game they develop. Gamers would still get the deals they had before as games would still be discounted over time (as they are currently), therefore it would be as bofore for them. However, publishers would be able to take more risks with game projects knowing full well that those games wouldn't have to sell a kajillion units to make them any money.

The used games market is nothing but a blight on the industry. It's as simple as that. That games on PC DD platforms like steam, and platforms like iOS can make money over longer periods is to their benefit and actually grants pubs more freedom to bring down the cost of games across the board as it opens up the possibility of selling to poorer consumers over a much longer time, and that money going back directly into the pockets of the creators who had to invest in the game's development in the first place.

I have no sympathy for game stores when we go fully DD. I think it will make for a much healthier industry, with the only problem then being piracy (which can be effectively curbed to a large degree). I would say that stuff like game rental services etc would be a none issue for pubs if they were able to rid themselves of the used games market, as there are more than enough gamers willing to purchase games over a full price range than those who would rather rent.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some of you guys should go back and review your books from your economics classes, if you haven't sold them already. :)

Let's get back to the topic, and like I suggested earlier, I think PSN and PSN+, specifically, is already on the right path with this. They currently offer time limited plays of full releases. A missed opportunity to me would be if the publishers or services use a blanket pricing and timeframe scheme for all games. Some games are flat out not worth more than a few hours of total play, while some (Skyrim) are huge time sinks.

But again, we'll never see this in a fully fleshed out service. They are too concerned about getting people to pay $60 for a game no matter what. Much like has already been described, people that want to play a game will get it early on to ensure they can play, and pay that price premium, while others will wait down the line once the price starts dropping.
 
I don't see why this couldn't be done. The public library system already does this with audio books and ebooks and ereaders. You "check out" an electronic copy, download it to your kindle (or whatever) and get to read it for a designated period of time. After that, the license expires and the library "rents out" the electronic copy to somebody else.

Obviously file size is larger with games than books, but I don't see a digital rights issue that hasn't already been solved by public libraries and ebooks.
 
wow... I looked at this thread and wondered how someone posted a new topic with my name on it. :oops:

then i realized I made it 3 years ago :p

I must have been having some kind of an issue with knowing DD was the future but not wanting to pay $65 for all the games that I now buy (new and used) and trade in after two weeks of realizing it's is not for me.

Bottom line, I would rent a hell of a lot more games on DD than I would ever pay full price for. Assuming a lot of people would be similar, I'm guessing publishers/devs would have a nice revenue stream from that was once the old used market. :devilish::smile:
 
avatar1.jpg

It could be a good idea, perhaps they could make it so that you have an option to purchase the game after the rental and get a refund from the rental purchase. I'm sure I would get to play more games that way.
 
Speaking of which, that would make rent-to-own a possibility as well. Once you've rented the game enough that you've equaled the retail price you just own it outright at that point.

Not terribly relevant for something like Gears which you can probably finish in a day, but would be fantastic for involved RPGs or other open world types of games with extended play and replay value.

Deveopers and publishers would potentially still be able to get the full retail price of a game while at the same time making it very affordable to people.

Back in the DOS gaming days (early 90's) there was a local PC shop that used to do this very thing.

Regards,
SB
 
Back
Top