Valve is a liar. Cheating on Halflife2

[jvd]

That sounds like either a misquote or misunderstanding. I think VALVe meant, "Valve insists that they have not optimized the game in any vendor's favor." Meaning the NV3x line needed the extra optimization to bring it in line with the R3x0 series, but no single vendor received any unfair optimization(s) to trump other vendors.

They say that

Valve insists that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.

Do you think NV3xpath is not unfair optimization(s)?

Dude the generic dx 9 path has not been optimized for any video card. However do to horrible horrible performance on nv3x cards valve has made a special path just for that card. I can assume that if the 9800pro is getting double the fps as the 5900ultra then before the special code path it was doing much much worse.

 

[engall]

That sounds like either a misquote or misunderstanding. I think VALVe meant, "Valve insists that they have not optimized the game in any vendor's favor." Meaning the NV3x line needed the extra optimization to bring it in line with the R3x0 series, but no single vendor received any unfair optimization(s) to trump other vendors.

They say that

Valve insists that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.

Do you think NV3xpath is not unfair optimization(s)?

Dude the generic dx 9 path has not been optimized for any video card. However do to horrible horrible performance on nv3x cards valve has made a special path just for that card. I can assume that if the 9800pro is getting double the fps as the 5900ultra then before the special code path it was doing much much worse.

the generic dx 9 path has not been optimized for any video card. Thats all
right.But I mean NV3xpath.

 

[Eolirin]

There are no unfair optimizations involved in the nv3x path... the only vendor specific optimizations that are in there are necessary to get the game to actually run at an acceptable framerate on the nv3x line, hardly something that's an unfair optimization.

 

[engall]

There are no unfair optimizations involved in the nv3x path... the only vendor specific optimizations that are in there are necessary to get the game to actually run at an acceptable framerate on the nv3x line, hardly something that's an unfair optimization.

Ok,no unfair optimization.
But They made the statement that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
In fact. They didnt do it.
They have optimized the game specifically for nVidia.
Mixed NV3x path is the proof.
Valve is a liar.

 

[digitalwanderer]

There are no unfair optimizations involved in the nv3x path... the only vendor specific optimizations that are in there are necessary to get the game to actually run at an acceptable framerate on the nv3x line, hardly something that's an unfair optimization.

Ok,no unfair optimization.
But They made the statement that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
In fact. They didnt do it.
They have optimized the game specifically for nVidia.
Mixed NV3x path is the proof.
Valve is a liar.

Uhm, "liar" implies that valve was trying to perpetrate some form of fraud or dishonesty to me...I think it's more a matter of a misunderstood statement as Valve DID make clear what they meant.

 

[jvd]

There are no unfair optimizations involved in the nv3x path... the only vendor specific optimizations that are in there are necessary to get the game to actually run at an acceptable framerate on the nv3x line, hardly something that's an unfair optimization.

Ok,no unfair optimization.
But They made the statement that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
In fact. They didnt do it.
They have optimized the game specifically for nVidia.
Mixed NV3x path is the proof.
Valve is a liar.

Dude. Valve didn't touch the dx9 path and it provides the best image quality and feature set. They had to make a nv3x path otherwise everyone who bought a 500$ video card in the last year from nvidia would play the game at 15fps and they would loose alot of customers.

So there is still the untouched dx 9 code that is what everyone would want to run. But there is also a toned down dx8.1-9 hybrid so people who got screwed by nvidia can at least play the game. They state it in thier slides. So they aren't a lier. You don't seem to grasp whats going on.

 

[Ostsol]

Agreed. . . It looks definitely like a misunderstanding. The generic path is optimized for no-one in particular, but there is at least one path that certainly is optmized for an IHV. The only problem most people have with a game being optmized for a particular vendor is when there is only a single render path. If there are multiple paths, each one optimized for a different vendor or video card, that's not so bad as long as all paths utilize the same general featureset (unless the target video card doesn't support some features) and aims to as similar detail levels as possible.

 

[engall]

There are no unfair optimizations involved in the nv3x path... the only vendor specific optimizations that are in there are necessary to get the game to actually run at an acceptable framerate on the nv3x line, hardly something that's an unfair optimization.

Ok,no unfair optimization.
But They made the statement that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
In fact. They didnt do it.
They have optimized the game specifically for nVidia.
Mixed NV3x path is the proof.
Valve is a liar.

Uhm, "liar" implies that valve was trying to perpetrate some form of fraud or dishonesty to me...I think it's more a matter of a misunderstood statement as Valve DID make clear what they meant.

Yes, they did it.

They made the statement that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
Did they do what they said?No.They made optimized the game specifically for Nvidia.
Mixed Nv3x path is the proof.
I dont wanna repeat it again and again.


Thats the truth.They kept the truth far from us.
So its very obvious that Valve is not honest company.They are liars.

 

[engall]

Come on,
be logistic!
If Valve dont wanna damage their reputation,
they should confess what they did instead of cheating us.

 

[Ostsol]

Usually when one contradicts oneself in the same few minutes it's either a case of being a horrible liar, or a case of poorly chosen words. I'd be willing to bet it's the latter.

On a related note: why are you making such a big deal about this? So they optimized a render path for NVidia cards. So what?

 

[engall]

Usually when one contradicts oneself in the same few minutes it's either a case of being a horrible liar, or a case of poorly chosen words. I'd be willing to bet it's the latter.

On a related note: why are you making such a big deal about this? So they optimized a render path for NVidia cards. So what?

They optimized a render path for NVidia cards.Thats OK.
No problemo.
But They shouldnt have cheated us.

They did,But they said they hadnt done it.
Thats the point.

 

[gkar1]

-

Valve is pissed at all of the benchmarking "optimizations" they've seen in the hardware community;
- Half-Life 2 has a special NV3x codepath that was necessary to make NVIDIA's architecture perform reasonably under the game;
- Valve recommends running geforce fx 5200 and 5600 cards in dx8 mode in order to get playable frame rates.
- even with the special NV3x codepath, ATI is the clear performance leader under Half-Life 2 with the Radeon 9800 Pro hitting around 60 fps at 10x7. The 5900 ultra is noticeably slower with the special codepath and is horrendously slower under the default dx9 codepath;
- the Radeon 9600 Pro performs very well - it is a good competitor of the 5900 ultra;
- ATI didn't need these special optimizations to perform well and Valve insists that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
There you have it folks, there's much more coming tomorrow.

Optimization Investment
- 5X as much time optimizing NV3X path as we’ve spent optimizing generic DX9 path- Our customers have a lot of NVIDIA hardware
- We were surprised by the discrepancy
- ATI hardware didn’t need it

Thats the discrepancy.

Firstly, they say that they have not optimized the game specifically for any vendor.
but secondly,they say that 5X as much time optimizing NV3X path as we’ve spent optimizing generic DX9 path.
What about that?
They cheated us like a geek. Goddamn it.

You are what Reverend calls a "simpleton"
Educate yourself on the matter and then back any statements you make with facts and proof, not simple word twisting. English 101 anyone?

Sorry to be this blunt, but i think it fits the occasion

 

[WaltC]

Come on,
be logistic!
If Valve dont wanna damage their reputation,
they should confess what they did instead of cheating us.

Try as I might, I can't understand your position here. You seem to be seizing on a single sentence out of the entire presentation which you understood a certain way, to the exclusion of everything else in the presentation (slides, etc.) If you look at the slides, it's obvious they did do an nV3x code path, and it's also obvious they are saying they wish they hadn't bothered because it wasn't worth it. They made it plain that even with the optimized nV3x code path nV3x performance was way behind the relatively clean DX9 performance of R3x0, which required 1/5 of the time and effort to program. They also made it plain that smaller developers wouldn't have a prayer of attempting to optimize for nV3x as they have done, but more importantly, that smaller developers shouldn't even bother trying--that they should stick to approaching nV3x as a DX8.1 part. In fact, that's what Valve says it wishes it would have done instead of taking the optimization route for nV3x. Again, the only way your supposition rings true is if we forget about everything else Newell said and did during his presentation. To do that would be to miss his entire point.

 

[Ostsol]

Read the first paragraph in my previous post. They certainly did not cheat anyone.

Actually, if they didn't do anything to provide an optmized render path for GeforceFXs, I'm sure users of those cards would feel -very- cheated. It may be IHVs' responsibility to ensure that their products match the technologies they aim at and are able to compete, but once that hardware is out, it is the game developers' responsibility to avoid any unnecessary performance deficiencies. The preformance deficiencies presented by the GeforceFX were possible to alleviate, somewhat, so Valve did and I am very glad of that. You put -way- to much emphasis on a mis-spoken statement. . .

 

[MasterBaiter]

I think you're getting stuck on the sematics engall. Yes there is a path for Nvidia cards. Id has done the same for Doom3. They've done this to maintain the best performance for all cards in these games. Valve did not seem too happy that they had to waste so much time getting the Nvidia cards to run the game smoothly... If you're trying to start a flame engall, you're on the right track. I don't think Gabe would say one thing and then contradict himself right away on it. If it makes you happy to call him a liar, knock yourself out though.

 

[engall]

I dont mean Valve shouldnt optmized render path for GeforceFXs.
I just want Valve tell us the truth.

 

[Ostsol]

I dont mean Valve shouldnt optmized render path for GeforceFXs.
I just want Valve tell us the truth.

Um. . . they did.

 

[engall]

I dont mean Valve shouldnt optmized render path for GeforceFXs.
I just want Valve tell us the truth.

Um. . . they did.

One question.
Whether they have optimized the game specifically for Nvidia or not.
If not ,
what about mixed Nv3x path?

 

[martrox]

engall..... please seek some professional help! Your myoptic view of Valve's statements is totally counterproductive. Almost all here understand what you are saying....and almost all here understand what Valve is saying..... And you just don't get it.....

You might try some more ruffage in your diet.......might help - couldn't hurt!

 

[Pete]

engall, you're misunderstanding a secondary paraphrase (Valve's words filtered through Anand). What Valve means (and what Anand meant by "optimizations") is that they didn't code the game with specific hardware in mind--they coded for generic DX9. When Valve discovered that nV's hardware doesn't work well with generic DX9 code, they had to spend quite a bit of time to optimize their code to perform adequately on nV's much more finicky ("twitchy," as Carmack noted so long ago) hardware.

What's your problem with this, anyway? Valve isn't going to charge you more for their extra efforts, and they didn't cheat ATi owners out of any extra speed. Valve had to expend the extra effort for nV cards simply because most of their customers own nV cards, so Valve would be remiss not to offer them the best experience possible. Valve appears to be disappointed with nV b/c the FX line requires so much extra effort for so little speed, and angry because of the apparent driver hacks and cheats nV employs to attempt to break even with ATi.

Given the FX architecture, it's not surprising that it's taking nV some time to get their drives up to speed. Check this post at Ace's Hardware out for some clarification (courtesy of 3DCenter's nice article).