U.K. Court: PS2 Not a Computer

[RancidLunchmeat]

It's not about defending Sony, If Microsoft, Nintendo or whoever else were in court for the same reason, I would say fair enough. They were trying to get the title of PS2 changed to a "digital processing unit" which it certainly is, so is a Gamecube, XBox and even a pocket calculator,so I fail to see why you can't believe some people would find this unjust.

So? What in the world are you talking about?

Are you intentionally trying to put forth the notion that Sony's PS2 was the only device subject to this tariff while the Gamecube and Xbox were not?

 

[Andy]

So? What in the world are you talking about?

Are you intentionally trying to put forth the notion that Sony's PS2 was the only device subject to this tariff while the Gamecube and Xbox were not?

When did I ever say that? Seriously, where did that even come from? I don't understand your logic behind even suggesting that I was "intentionally putting forth the notion that Sony's PS2 was the only device subject to this tariff" Are you okay man? Working too hard? Not sleeping enough? Skipped breakfast this morning? You're reading into my post way too much, perhaps to suit your own agenda, however I do not wish to put words into your mouth either.

It's not about defending Sony, If Microsoft, Nintendo or whoever else were in court for the same reason, I would say fair enough.

I did say that however.

If you actually bothered to read what I had to say, all I was pointing out, is whichever company found this tariff unfair and wanted to take it to court, (whether it be Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft) I would say fair enough, I respect that, after all consoles are a type of computer.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I don't see the problem, all countries put import taxes on nearly all imports. If they've designated an exemptiopn for PC's due to whatever reason, I'm sure the rationale (whatever it was) does not extend to a gaming console. It's simply Sony tryig to use a loophole that was not intended for their type of product. A games console is a completely different product than a PC.

It's fine to say EU should remove these 'silly' tarriffs, but why should they when most other countries do the exact same thing?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Presumably they don't though. Otherwise why isn't Sony trying to get the PS2 classed as a computer in Asia and NA to avoid their tarriffs?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Presumably they don't though. Otherwise why isn't Sony trying to get the PS2 classed as a computer in Asia and NA to avoid their tarriffs?

Mayube because NA/Asia don't have an exemption on PC's like EU does? I'm sure they have to pay the 8% import tax in canada as there is no exemption for PC's that I know of.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

When did I ever say that?

If you actually bothered to read what I had to say, all I was pointing out, is whichever company found this tariff unfair and wanted to take it to court, (whether it be Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft) I would say fair enough, I respect that, after all consoles are a type of computer.

I did read what you wrote, and what you wrote certainly could have lead to the impression that only Sony was subject to this tariff as opposed to MS and N, and therefore this tariff was unjust.

Why would it be unjust for Sony, if it were levied equally across the board? It wouldn't be. Therefore, to say that the PS2 is the same as the Xbox or Gamecube and Sony is fighting this tariff because it's unjust to them most definately can lead to the assumption that Sony was facing an obstacle that the others were not.

It's also why I simply asked you to reclarify your intentions.

Furthermore, your conclusions are completely false. Anybody with the slightest knowledge of tariffs knows that any single product can fall into multiple categories. The fact that the PS2 contains a CPU, and therefore a digital processing unit, does mean that it qualifies for classification accord to taric code 84711000.

However, that is a general classification. The EU decided to create a more specific, and different classification of 95041000, which is extremely specific 'video games of the type that attach to a television monitor'. The EU decided they would tax that classification, for whatever reason, up until Jan 1, 2004.

There's nothing unjust about it because both MS and N had to pay the same tariffs. Pocket Calculators (as used in your example because I assume you didn't actually read the judgement, or the taric codes or do the slightest bit of research), wouldn't fall into classification 95041000 because they 1) Aren't video games and 2) aren't of the type that are attached to television monitors.

 

[Andy]

It's also why I simply asked you to reclarify your intentions.

Emotions are hard to pick over the net, but your initial post really rubbed me the wrong way, perhaps it was the first line above all:

So? What in the world are you talking about?

It seemed like you were dismissing me as some Sony fanb0y, in short, I am a gamer first and foremost, and I spend way too much money on upgrading my computer, and buying consoles, handhelds etc. to satisfy my gaming needs.

You are right I know nothing about European tariffs and that's understandable because I
live across the other side of the world (Aus), not that it pays to be ignorant about it either.

My point was simply and foremost, that if any of the consoles manufacuters considered this tariff unfair, because ultimately a pocket calculator is still a computer too as it is considerably more powerful than what was considered a computer back in the 1970s that also took up a whole room, then they should fight it in court, ala Sony.

Given my beliefs of what I consider a computer, then you can appreciate that I don't agree with the verdict, nor do I agree that Sony should be denied appealing to the European Court of Justice, should they wish to do so, but that's the ruling and there is nothing anyone can do to change that now.

 

[Platon]

Emotions are hard to pick over the net, but your initial post really rubbed me the wrong way, perhaps it was the first line above all:


It seemed like you were dismissing me as some Sony fanb0y, in short, I am a gamer first and foremost, and I spend way too much money on upgrading my computer, and buying consoles, handhelds etc. to satisfy my gaming needs.

You are right I know nothing about European tariffs and that's understandable because I
live across the other side of the world (Aus), not that it pays to be ignorant about it either.

My point was simply and foremost, that if any of the consoles manufacuters considered this tariff unfair, because ultimately a pocket calculator is still a computer too as it is considerably more powerful than what was considered a computer back in the 1970s that also took up a whole room, then they should fight it in court, ala Sony.

Given my beliefs of what I consider a computer, then you can appreciate that I don't agree with the verdict, nor do I agree that Sony should be denied appealing to the European Court of Justice, should they wish to do so, but that's the ruling and there is nothing anyone can do to change that now.

Personally, I really can't see, schools, bussinesses, organizations and whatever start replacing their PCs with PS2 anytime time soon, although PS2 are much cheaper, no matter what kind of funky basic or linux it can run it doesn't even come close to being a "computer". This is clearly a case where Sony is trying to push a camel through a keyhole...

 

[Titanio]

Personally, I really can't see, schools, bussinesses, organizations and whatever start replacing their PCs with PS2 anytime time soon, although PS2 are much cheaper, no matter what kind of funky basic or linux it can run it doesn't even come close to being a "computer". This is clearly a case where Sony is trying to push a camel through a keyhole...

And that's the problem. People thinking a computer is a PC, and can only be a PC.

I think this is a matter of background. You're going to have techies here, people who work with computers or who've been educated in computer science or whatever, who for the most part should see no problem in calling a PS2 a computer. They're looking at this from a technical perspective. Like I said earlier, there is absolutely no argument here from a technical POV. And then you have, no offense, apparent 'lay people' - for want of a better word - who are simply rowing into the argument often for the sake of it, or for the sake of argument against good ol' crazy Sony, holding steadfastly to what a judge said based on an entirely unrelated perspective compared to their own (tax law), and to the notion that computers are only PCs. The latter - the oblivious use of 'computer' and 'PC' as comprehensive substitutes for one another - is a dead giveaway usually.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's worth noting that legal classification doesn't necessarily have anything to do with rational classification. The fact a PS2 is in hardware a computer doesn't mean it will be classified for tax purposes as a computer. For an extreme case, we can look to Cambridge University. A new Dean of College (or University, I forget which) was appointed, and he would accept, except that University rules said no dogs were allowed, only cats. The would be Dean absolutely refused the position unless he could have his two dogs with him. After much wrangling and debate, it was decided to consult the head of Law for the University. He said the solution was easy - classify his dogs as cats. And so the position was filled with two Great Dane cats (or whatever breed they were) accompanying the Dean on his morning stroll.

The Law is a set of rules to follow. They themselves don't need to follow any sense. If some official classes a PC as a foodstuff for the sakes of Tax, it's a food. We cactualy have real-world examples in the EU of vegetables being classed as fruit so that a conserve can be classed as a jam (I think it's Carrot Jam from Spain or Portugal that I heard on this one).

And there's no point in any of us trying to debate the legal validity of PS2 as a computer, because Law is a world on it's own and none of us have that subtle amount of insanity needed to go along with it unquestioningly.

 

[Black Dragon37]

It's worth noting that legal classification doesn't necessarily have anything to do with rational classification. The fact a PS2 is in hardware a computer doesn't mean it will be classified for tax purposes as a computer. For an extreme case, we can look to Cambridge University. A new Dean of College (or University, I forget which) was appointed, and he would accept, except that University rules said no dogs were allowed, only cats. The would be Dean absolutely refused the position unless he could have his two dogs with him. After much wrangling and debate, it was decided to consult the head of Law for the University. He said the solution was easy - classify his dogs as cats. And so the position was filled with two Great Dane cats (or whatever breed they were) accompanying the Dean on his morning stroll.

To think that Cambridge University is one of the best universities in Britian...

 

[London Geezer]

That story is just weird......

 

[scooby_dooby]

Like I said earlier, there is absolutely no argument here from a technical POV. And then you have, no offense, apparent 'lay people' -

And then there's people who realize that the technical definition is irrelevent and what matter is practical usage.

PC were given an exemption, this could be due to any number of reasons incuding the fact PC's are requied for business operations, they are required in schools, they teach children at home, then enable long distance learning, any number of things. There are no comparisons to the PS2 here.

PS2 does none of this, it is as much a computer as a graphing calculator, technical definition notwithstanding.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Given my beliefs of what I consider a computer, then you can appreciate that I don't agree with the verdict, nor do I agree that Sony should be denied appealing to the European Court of Justice, should they wish to do so, but that's the ruling and there is nothing anyone can do to change that now.

No, because that argument simply doesn't make sense.. which is essentially what the judge eventually ruled in this case.

Sure, it can be classified as a computer. But there's a separate, more specific taric code specifically for video games.

That's like saying there's no tax on automobiles, so despite the fact there IS a tax on SUVs that get less than 10 mpg, GM goes to court trying to get around the tax on their Hummers because despite the fact it's an SUV that gets less than 10mpg, it's also an automobile and there's no additional tax on automobiles!

Face it, it makes no sense.

It's a ridiculous argument, which is why the judge not only threw the case out, he ridiculed them in the process.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

The Law is a set of rules to follow. They themselves don't need to follow any sense. If some official classes a PC as a foodstuff for the sakes of Tax, it's a food. We cactualy have real-world examples in the EU of vegetables being classed as fruit so that a conserve can be classed as a jam (I think it's Carrot Jam from Spain or Portugal that I heard on this one).

We have the same thing in the US. Tomatoes are officially classified as vegetables specifically for tax purposes, despite the fact they are a fruit.

 

[Titanio]

And then there's people who realize that the technical definition is irrelevent and what matter is practical usage.

PC were given an exemption, this could be due to any number of reasons incuding the fact PC's are requied for business operations, they are required in schools, they teach children at home, then enable long distance learning, any number of things. There are no comparisons to the PS2 here.

PS2 does none of this, it is as much a computer as a graphing calculator, technical definition notwithstanding.

I appreciate under EU tax classification, PS2 does not qualify. I'm simply pointing out that under a general, technical classification, PS2 is a computer. I generally don't consult EU tax law when it comes to technical matters.

edit - silly me for not staying logged in, I should not have seen that post.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I appreciate under EU tax classification, PS2 does not qualify. I'm simply pointing out that under a general, technical classification, PS2 is a computer. I generally don't consult EU tax law when it comes to technical matters.

I agree, I just think there are more than the two types of people you listed. There are technical people who think that the argument is ridiculous, because even though we realise that technically it is a 'personal computer', it's never ever used as such.